When we talk to passionate fundraisers who are deeply committed to their donors, their most common complaint about their work is that they don’t feel supported by their managers. People leave organizations because of it, yet management skills are often undervalued in the non-profit space.
In today’s episode, Karen and Jeff talk through some of the obstacles that may be holding you back as a leader for your fundraising team, and how you can take steps to turn things around. For anyone managing a team of frontline fundraisers, we hope you’ll tune in to this episode for strategies to help you be the kind of manager who inspires your team to do their best work.
And if you could use an external partner to support your work as a manager or non-profit leader, we’d love to chat. Schedule a call today for a no-pressure conversation about ways we can support you and your team so you can achieve even more for your mission.
Show Highlights: In this episode, you’ll learn about…
- Some of the most common issues that cause managers and leaders to be ineffective in their roles
- Practices and actions that define the most effective non-profit leaders and managers
- How to change the culture at your organization and address any management issues that may be holding your team back
Veritus Group is passionate about partnering with you and your organization throughout your fundraising journey. We believe that the key to transformative fundraising is a disciplined system and structure, trusted accountability, persistence, and a bit of fun. We specialize in mid-level fundraising, major gifts, and planned giving, helping our clients to develop compelling donor offers and to focus on strategic leadership and organizational development. You can learn more about how we can partner with you at www.VeritusGroup.com.
Additional Resources:
- [Blog] What Makes a Good Non-Profit Leader?
- [Blog] Why Developing Your EQ Is Key to Great Leadership
- [Course] Take our Certification Course for Fundraising Managers and Executives
Read the Full Transcript of This Podcast Episode Here:
Jeff Schreifels
If you’re like most non-profit leaders and managers, you probably came into your role with little to no training on what it takes to lead and manage people well. So many organizations don’t have the resources – or worse – don’t see the value in providing training and development opportunities for leaders. For today’s episode, we’re focusing on some common issues that may be holding you back as a leader, along with our tips for overcoming these challenges, so that you can inspire and support your team in the important work you’re doing.
Recorded
Welcome to the Nothing But Major Gifts podcast from Veritus Group featuring Richard Perry and Jeff Schreifels. Twice a month, we bring you the latest and best thinking about major gift fundraising so you can develop authentic relationships with your major donors. Here are your hosts, Richard and Jeff.
Jeff Schreifels
Welcome to the podcast today. I’m Jeff Schreifels. And today I’ve got Karen Kendrick with me to talk about one of the most important topics related to the success of your relational fundraising work: how to be a great leader and manager. I can’t tell you how many times we’ve worked with or talked to a great fundraiser, who’s really passionate about their work and committed to their donors, yet they’re frustrated and struggle because of bad leadership and management within the organization. And I say leadership and management because managers are leaders in the organization. So today, we’re not talking about the executive director who helps lead on the vision of the organization. I mean, that’s important, obviously. But we’re talking today about those who directly manage frontline fundraisers – whether you’re a director or VP of development, who has the direct responsibility for your department, and you have to manage your fundraising staff.
Karen Kendrick
Yeah. Thank you, Jeff. It’s really disappointing to hear stories about bad leaders and managers. But it’s even harder how often we hear from leaders who have never gotten the training or support that they need to do the job well. And Jeff, maybe I’m off-base here. But I think leaders sometimes think that simply because they’ve been placed in a leadership position, or management position, and they’ve learned a lot, you know, in all their other roles, that they’re supposed to somehow know what they’re doing and be ready to roll. So then it’s like, wanting to hide the fact that you don’t know what you’re doing, because you think you’re supposed to know what you’re doing. And that’s so exhausting. And takes energy and is not really real, right? So I’m here today to say give yourself a break. No one steps into a role and doesn’t have a ton to learn. So the exciting and beautiful thing about leadership is that it’s an incredible opportunity to learn and grow individually and professionally, which we can get into later. So Jeff, I know you’ve worked with a lot of leaders and managers over the years. So what are some of the most important, common issues you’ve seen that cause them to be ineffective?
Jeff Schreifels
That’s a really good question. So I would say the first thing is, they don’t have the trust of their people. So, many managers, they haven’t built up that trust; they haven’t done what they said they’re going to do. And so their team doesn’t fully know that they can count on them. And so not having trust is number one.
Jeff Schreifels
Another one is they micromanage their people. So you know, Richard has always been big on managing by objectives, meaning, here are the objectives and instead of micromanaging every little thing that they do, it’s just managing by those bigger objectives. Are they reaching those? And if they are, great. You don’t have to get down into the little nitty gritty of everything they’re doing. No one likes someone standing over their shoulder, and wanting to know what they’re doing on every little thing. So I mean, we’ve heard from so many major gift officers who have that kind of micromanaging manager, and how awful it is, for them to actually do their work.
Jeff Schreifels
And then I would say that managers who prefer to get results through their own efforts versus others is a huge problem with managers that we run into today. And many, I mean, many times, what happens in non-profits is that they bring up their best major gift officer, to be the manager of the other folks in their team. And that on the surface sounds like, “Well, that’s a good idea. They’re the best at this, they should be leading the whole team.” The problem is that your best major gift officer is someone that gets results through their own efforts. That’s their motivation. And now you’re asking them to get results through other people. And that’s very frustrating for that star MGO who’s now a manager to work with. And that happens all the time. We make mistakes. You know, CEOs and executive directors make the mistake all the time of making their best major gift officer, the manager. It’s a completely different thing.
Karen Kendrick
Let me break that down a little bit more. I don’t know if it’s always clear. It’s like, I would get my juice from my work; it makes me excited and I’m motivated, because of the stuff I personally do that’s creative, that’s interesting, that’s efficient, all the things. To then have to get work done through other people is a whole different skill set. That’s people stuff. People stuff is really hard. And the skills are not transferable. I have to learn a whole new set of skills. And that has to be motivating. Like to see someone grow and learn and expand and move things out of the way for them and see them be successful, is a different piece.
Jeff Schreifels
Exactly. Another one I see is those managers and leaders who are just going after the money. And they don’t understand fully that this is about building relationships, and that this takes time. And so what happens if they’re just focused on the money, and usually, the manager/leader who’s focused on the money is getting pressure from something else saying, “You need to bring in this money.” So they’re passing it on to their folks, “You got to bring in this money.” So it just keeps cascading down to the MGOs. And so, what happens is, the MGOs are frustrated, because they’re always on edge. You know, they’re just going after the donors that are going to bring in the most money, they’re going to skip the relationship part. And it’s going to be a disaster long term. And so we see that often, where managers are pressuring their frontline staff to just get the money. There’s just not an understanding that this is about relationships, and relationships take time. Now, we all know because we’ve been doing this a long time, Karen, that the money is the result of all of that good stuff. But I don’t know what it is. We’re so like, we got to do it. Now. We’ve got to bring it in. And so we get pressure and that pressure gets handed down to the MGOs.
Karen Kendrick
It’s a real gift to be able to stand in the middle of that pressure. So you’re getting pressue to bring in the revenue and, I was just talking to someone the other day, they were a little behind on revenue, and the leader was like, “Okay, all board members, go out and make these asks and do these things.” And there was all this, you know, it’s very natural, right? “We’re behind, oh, my gosh, let’s do something. Let’s do it. Now, let’s do it immediately.” And you know, this leader was standing in that gap and saying, “Wait a minute. Let’s just pause. Let’s take a breath. Here’s what we have in the pipeline, here’s what’s going to be happening/what’s potential. Here are some ways board members can support the relationships that are happening. But if we just go out and do these, out of the blue, let’s ask for $50,000, it’s going to harm relationships.”
Jeff Schreifels
Absolutely. And finally, and this kind of covers all of it, but it’s those ineffective management strategies. So it kind of goes back to what you said at the very beginning, how, you know, we just expect, you know, you bring in a manager, they’re just going to know what to do. And I would say, in the non-profit space, and even in the for-profit space, managers are not trained well. They’re put in these positions, and they haven’t had good coaching prior; they haven’t had the training. You know, these are people-jobs. And if they’re coming from, especially if they’re coming as an MGO who’s out there, just trying to, you know, build relationships with donors, and trying to, you know, get those great gifts… they’re not, they don’t know what to do when they have to get that same result through other people. And so, they do stupid stuff (laughter). And it’s not their fault, because they haven’t been trained effectively in the first place. So, I think those are some of the things that we see in ineffective managers and leaders.
Jeff Schreifels
Now, Karen, I know that you’ve done some extensive work with leaders and managers in your coaching. So what are some of the challenges with being effective as a leader that you see?
Karen Kendrick
So I want to go back to the trust piece for a minute, Jeff. I think it’s a challenge to even know what that means and how to build it. So let’s just break that down a little bit more. Because obviously, you have to have competence as a leader, in your area. And so building your competence is important. I highly recommend Jeff and Richard’s book, “It’s Not JUST About the Donor,” if you’re interested in building… because it has everything you need in there for a system, structure, metrics to run an effective individual fundraising program. What’s interesting is, you can have the highest competence, but if you don’t have trust/people don’t trust you, you’re not going to be effective.
Karen Kendrick
So really, your trust is even more important than your competence. And even in studies, they’ve seen that people are more effective if they’re trust builders, right? So Stephen Covey talks about this in his “Speed of Trust.” He said it takes longer and costs more to do everything when you don’t have trust. So you think about it, a leader comes in, there’s no trust, they’re feeling like I’ve got to prove myself and show that I have value, which is ego-base, not really about, you know, wanting us to be successful together. And they start making all these changes. And people don’t trust what they’re saying. They don’t trust the new systems. So they’re resistant, and they discount like 20-50% of what you’re saying. So it’s like, you’re dragging people through water the whole time. And so there’s a cost to that. It’s exhausting for you. There’s no flow, there’s no collaboration, there’s no creativity, there’s no possibility. And so I think that one of the biggest challenges for leaders is to think about, “How do I really come in and do that as a leader with my team? And what does that look like?”
Karen Kendrick
And so, I’m going to shift to what I think that looks like, Jeff. And I think it starts with that self trust. And we talk about this. You know, both of us are on our own journeys, of continually doing our own work. Like, “who am I as a person? How does that show up in the landscape as a leader?” For example, I’m going to have automatic thoughts and responses and actions that come from triggers of my past experiences. How do those get in the way of me bringing my presence and authentic self? Like, let me unpack that and know that. And that takes work. It takes other people coaching, helping…
Jeff Schreifels
Counseling, therapy.
Karen Kendrick
Yes! We have all done all of it. And a couple of stories about that is… years ago, I was facilitating training in the corporate sector. And my co-facilitator, Hassan, I asked him, you know, “How do I come across as a facilitator and leader?” And he said, to my shock, “Well, you’re kind of an ice queen.” And I was horrified. I’m imagining that I’m this warm and connecting and creating a safe space. And so then I went on a journey like, why would people experience me that way? And it was all about where I went under stress. And I just popped out of my body. You know, that fight or flight? I was in flight; I was just not there. And so, you know, that broke down trust with anybody I was wanting to communicate or work with. So learning what that’s about, learning tools to manage it. Even with tools, like if I don’t eat enough protein, I can’t be present in important meetings and training. And so I’ll start to go to a spacey-place. So you learn to self-manage.
Karen Kendrick
Another example would be Ron, I was doing some training, and Ron realized, you know, my reaction about wanting to make things right or good is to run all over everybody. Move it, run all over everybody, make it happen. That’s my go-to way of being from some of my past, not really my authentic self. And so the very next day, he went into work and said to a colleague he was supposed to collaborate with, “You know, I gotta say, I learned yesterday, just how much I run over people. And I realized we’re supposed to work together. And I have not been listening, I have not been present to who you are, what your ideas are. I’ve been just trying to run all over the whole thing, and it’s not been working. And so I’m here today to listen.” And their whole relationship changed.
Jeff Schreifels
Wow.
Karen Kendrick
So these are pieces that are critical. It takes humility. It takes courage, right? You got to be willing to step in there and look at those things. But man, it’s life changing for not just work, obviously, for all the relationships. So having people in your life that hold up a mirror, that ask good questions, that provide tools, can really help you be more present, show up, and build that trust.
Jeff Schreifels
Yes, yes.
Karen Kendrick
Okay, so let’s flip the focus here some more. What are the… Jeff talk about what it is that leaders and managers need the most to be effective. What do they need to create?
Jeff Schreifels
Yeah. I would say they first need to foster a culture of learning with their team; that they’re always trying to encourage their people to learn more about their craft. To learn more about themselves. That they don’t have all the answers. That they don’t even have all the answers and that they are also taking the lead and learning about themselves.
Karen Kendrick
I’m gonna jump in. I think a shock to me, Jeff, when I started to see good leaders, is how much they would find the smartest person that knew how to do something and go sit at their feet humbly asking questions.
Jeff Schreifels
Yes.
Karen Kendrick
Oh, that’s what being a leader is! That’s really different than like, I have the answers and nobody else does.
Jeff Schreifels
I think that’s a really good point, especially for new leaders and managers. They’re put in this position and now they feel like, “I’ve got to know it all. I know it all, or I’ve got to appear to know it all.” And so they come across as very authoritative. And, you know, the staff knows that they don’t know it all.
Karen Kendrick
Right. That’s why they don’t trust you.
Jeff Schreifels
And so coming in with this culture of learning means, “Hey, I don’t know it all. But I’m learning. And we’re learning together. And I’m trying to lead that way.” So having that culture of learning is what makes success for managers and leaders. And I think also adaptability. Not being so rigid. I mean, the worst managers I’ve had in my career are ones that, you know, are, “No. This is the way you do it; you can’t do it any differently. I don’t want to hear it. This is the way we’ve always done it.” You know, it doesn’t leave room for any creativity. So being adaptable; learning new things means you have to be adaptable because things are going to change. And if you’re not someone that can handle change, you’re gonna have a really tough time leading people. So being adaptable.
Karen Kendrick
So if you think being a leader means: everything’s gonna run smoothly, everyone’s gonna do their job effectively, everything’s gonna be continually growing. You’re gonna feel like a failure every day, because it’s going to be messy every day. And probably when it’s really messy is when some of the great changes are happening.
Jeff Schreifels
I think also fostering a culture that allows people to bring their true authentic self to their work. I think that is, I mean, if you’re a leader/manager, that is probably one of the best things you can do… is letting people feel safe, that they can be who they are. That, you know, you can have real conversations with them, that they can talk about who they are with you and not be afraid. It’s like the opposite. If you can create that culture; it’s the opposite of a culture of fear. So being able to foster that.
Jeff Schreifels
I think, you know, we talk about this a lot, having a good emotional intelligence. Being able to tell what’s happening with your team of individuals; being able to read their body language; being able to know, “What are they really saying?” And that does take emotional intelligence. So as a manager and leader having that is really important. So you really have a pulse of what’s going on.
Karen Kendrick
And it’s so amazing. And then being curious, not assuming what you think they mean. Like, I remember being in a meeting, and I was not having a good day. And then someone in our team called me up, “Karen, are you okay?” I was like, “(sobbing noises).” You know, like being seen and being checked on and being curious about what’s going on and what you need.
Jeff Schreifels
It takes emotional intelligence to be able to detect that in someone else and to be able to say, you know, “Karen is not herself right now. There’s something happening. And I just want to check in with her.” That makes a great manager/leader. You know, we’ve talked about this already, but they enjoy getting outcomes through others. They love developing people. That’s the key. A great manager is someone who’s a great developer. Like I think the greatest profession, who loves developing people, are teachers. You know, when you ask a teacher why they love teaching, they always talk about how they love seeing their students get something, and learn from it. So developing people, and always looking for their opportunity to grow.
Jeff Schreifels
You know, I’ve heard from some MGOs, who have a great manager, and they talk about how their manager is always looking for opportunities for them to go to another level. And that they want them to do better, that they even say to them stuff like, “Hey, you’re not going to be here forever. But I’m going to help you grow in your craft. So that 10 years from now, you can be working for a bigger organization.” You know what I mean? It’s like those kinds of people you want to be around, you want to work with, you want as a manager.
Jeff Schreifels
And then I think another one is that you’re not afraid… if you’re a good manager or leader, you’re not afraid to hold people accountable, and provide difficult feedback. I think this is a big one. I myself, I have a personality, I like to avoid conflict. You know, talk about childhood traumas and all of those things. So that’s something that I’ve always had to deal with: trying to run away from hard things or any kind of conflict. And I’ve had to make a conscious decision throughout my career, to say, “No, I’m going to stay in this. I’m going to talk about the difficult things, and it’s going to be okay.” And I’ve had many opportunities where I’ve had to do this in my career. And it was very difficult. But every time it got better and better and easier and easier for me to understand the power of being able to have real conversations with people about difficult things. And to stay in it. Because once you get out of it, you go to a much better place. But I see so many managers and leaders who don’t hold their people accountable, and tell them difficult things. And you’re actually doing those people a disfavor. You’re avoiding it. And you’re thinking, “Oh, I can’t hurt their feelings,” or whatever. But that actually does them a disservice. And like the story you just told Karen, about how someone said, you know, “You come off as an ice queen.” Had that person never said that, you would have never gone down the journey of trying to figure out what that was. Now look where you are compared to then.
Karen Kendrick
I was an ice queen for 10 years, at least (laughter).
Jeff Schreifels
I know. I know. See what that person did for you. Now that was probably not easy for them to say that because who knows how you could have reacted to that. Right? And that was a beautiful thing that they did. It was a gift.
Karen Kendrick
It was a gift.
Jeff Schreifels
And that’s how I have now kind of taken that. You know, I’ve had to make some hard decisions, like even this year. And my first reaction is, “Oh, I don’t want to have this conversation.” But I’m like, “No, you need to do this. This is going to be okay. And at the end of the day, it’s going to take us to a different place.” And it’s been a gift to be able to give that to another person, even though it’s difficult. And so when we’re working with our folks, you know, we’re working with over 200 major gift officers, mid-level officers, planned giving officers every day. We have to have some really tough conversations at times. And it’s not easy, but it’s making them better. And it’s helping them become a better person, a better major gift officer because of that. What would you add, Karen, to that?
Karen Kendrick
And just thinking about that, why he could say I’m an ice queen, even though I was like, “gasping sounds,” at first. Why that worked is because I knew he came from the right motive, right? He cared about me, it was for my success. It was for the right things, right? It wasn’t to take me down some notches so that he could feel more powerful. Which is what happens in a lot of places, right? Someone’s gotta keep knocking you down some notches just because they’re insecure about who you are.
Karen Kendrick
So being able to hire and work with the smartest people you can find. And when you feel intimidated, check yourself as a leader, right? And come from the right motive, like Jeff was saying. The “I want them to be successful,” can take you, oh my gosh, to so many beautiful places. I think another piece, too, that Joyce McDonald from Greater Public talks about, is that she takes responsibility for all failures. And all successes, she gives accolades to her team. Like that’s how she is as a leader. So to know that your leader is going to back you, and you’re talking to other people about what the team has done or whatever, they’re not throwing you under the bus, you’re gonna work so hard to make sure they never have to take that hit for you. Right?
Jeff Schreifels
And you know what, everyone that works with her loves her; who works under her, loves her leadership. And I mean, when you have a leader that does that. Talk about building trust with her team? Wow.
Karen Kendrick
People will do anything for her. So a story on the opposite side. Recently, talking to someone at an organization, her leader basically assumed the worst intentions… I think that’s another piece: assuming best intentions. So she looked at some data of a big, you know, $2 million gift that had come in, and didn’t see a lot of activity after the gift came in from this gift officer. And she talked about the gift officer with other people, made assumptions that she was not doing her job, talked about how they need to go get more money from this donor, this was not right, because they have so much capacity. And the real story was this donor was actually very, very ill. And had asked for no contact. And so if that leader had come and said, “Hey, I noticed this, you know, these people have a lot of potential. What’s going on? Doesn’t seem like you’re taking care of them. I know you really do. So you know, tell me what’s going on.” It would have been a whole great conversation about how we’re really serving this donor. Instead, that leader had the worst assumptions, and was not about that person being successful. It was all about themselves; having something to show they have value, right? So that would be the opposite of what we’re looking for. It’s really about not needing to prove your own value by belittling others. And you’re actually proving your own value by everyone growing and being the best they can be. That’s how you prove your value as a leader, and a manager.
Karen Kendrick
Love that. Awesome.
Karen Kendrick
All right. So what are some action steps, Jeff? Let’s leave with some of those. We talked about a lot of different things today.
Jeff Schreifels
Okay. Let’s leave with like three major action steps so people can pick this, “Okay, what can I do?” Number one: we’ve been talking a lot about self-care, self-management. Really develop your ability to bring your best self and presence. It’s this balance between doing and being. You know, managing your own fears, working on your own issues. So all the things you need to do to deal with… look, we all have traumas coming out of our childhood, we’ve all had things. We need to work on all of that. Or else you’re gonna bring that negative stuff to your team; you will. Work on that constantly.
Karen Kendrick
You know, Jeff, that can be as simple as getting sleep.
Karen Kendrick
Are you pouring back into yourself? You cannot keep pouring out, and all patience, all creativity, all openness, all confidence, all things that are your gifts or tools will be gone, if you’re not rested, exercise, eating well. All of those pieces are just as valuable to your leadership.
Jeff Schreifels
Oh, yeah.
Jeff Schreifels
Okay, so that’s number one: take care of yourself. Next, go in with a mindset of helping those you’re managing to be successful. That’s your whole mindset. You want everyone you’re managing to be wildly successful. So believe in them; have the best assumptions that they really are doing what they say they’re going to do, unless you find out later, they’re not. Then you need to have hard, hard conversations with them. But you’re always asking, “What do I need to do to help them be successful? What are the barriers I need to remove?” You know, there’s all kinds of barriers that happen externally, internally with your organization. You know, is the culture such that the major gift officers are always doing other things than working with donors? Stop that practice. Get your leadership team to realize your major gift officers, your mid-level officers, are focusing on donors, not, you know, tearing down tables at an event. So remove those barriers; start acting on those and then really communicate that to your whole team. That will build trust with your team if you can start to do those things.
Jeff Schreifels
And then I think the last one, Karen, is having open communication, both the good, and the bad stuff. Being able to be honest about what you’re doing, and if you yourself are running against a system that you’re not able to make change right away, you talk about that with the team. Let them know, “Hey, I’m working on this for you. But I’m running up against some tough things with the executive team. They’re not there yet. But I’m working on this for you. But I want you to know, it’s not going to happen overnight.” I think everyone would be able to appreciate that. So I think those are the three main things, you know, self-management and care, going in with that mindset of helping those you’re managing to be successful, and then being open with your communication with everyone.
Karen Kendrick
I just want to add to that last one, Jeff. I think sometimes as leaders or managers, we don’t want to hear what people’s problems are, because we think we have to fix all of them immediately to have value. So then we don’t listen. But if we listen to understand, and then communicate what we can and can’t and why, that’s what people need. So I love that last point.
Jeff Schreifels
Exactly. Well, thank you for joining me, Karen. And we hope that you all got some great tips for how to be effective and impactful as a leader and a manager. And if you’d like to learn more about how we can support you as a leader and manager in your work, we’d love to connect with you. Just click on the link in the show notes to schedule time with my colleague, Amy Chapman, to learn more about how we can partner with you to help you and your organization make even a greater difference in the world. So take care, and we’ll see you next time.
Karen Kendrick
Thank you, Jeff.
Recorded
Thank you for joining us for the Nothing But Major Gifts podcast from Veritus Group. Richard and Jeff also write an ongoing blog that you can subscribe to for free at veritusgroup.com. Please join us again next time.