Joyce MacDonald: Navigating the Future of Public Media

Jeff Schreifels
Welcome everyone. So glad you are with me today. I'm excited to talk with my good friend and colleague, Joyce MacDonald. Joyce is the president and CEO of Greater Public. And Greater Public, what they do is they inspire and empower public media organizations to advance their mission by ensuring a sustainable financial future. And Joyce is responsible for developing Greater Public's vision, strategy and plans to maximize public media's finances for long-term success. And in today's climate, with government funding being threatened, this is needed now more than ever. So with that, let's have some real talk with Joyce Mac. Joyce, welcome. You're welcome.

Joyce Mac
Cheers! Thanks for the mug, Jeff.

Jeff Schreifels
Yeah, you know, we've known each other now. I forget now how many years, but it six years, seven years, it all happened in San Francisco. When we met you at the conference that you run for all the public media stations and Richard and I sat with you in the lobby. And started talking about what we do and you're like, this sounds just right up my alley here.

Joyce Mac
Six, seven, yeah.

Jeff Schreifels
I wanna talk about major gifts and we did that and we came a few weeks later, we met you at the NPR headquarters and showed you a little bit more about Veritus and since then, we've been together partners for a long time, really helping all of these great stations around the country. So here we are.

Joyce Mac
Headquarters. Yep. Yep.

Jeff Schreifels
This is an interesting time we're in. So, yeah. So with all these challenges that are going on, because I think everyone who's listening knows what's been going on. The federal government is threatening to pull out all the funding. And we don't know where that is right yet, but it could happen. So.

Joyce Mac
You have an interesting definition of interesting.

Jeff Schreifels
What are all the challenges from your perspective that public media is facing today?

Joyce Mac
Well, what's getting the attention right now is that federal funding and it is critically important for public media for many reasons. I think to sort of telescope out, public media has been extremely successful at low-level gifts.

Jeff Schreifels
Yeah.

Joyce Mac
Dependent on low-level gifts. And federal funding is part of the mix, but so is sponsorship. And for most public media organizations, the largest piece of the pie is individual giving. And when I came into this chair, and I'd been in public media for a long time, I knew or I suspected that public media had an opportunity to become more of a philanthropic destination than just sort of a transactional, you know.

Jeff Schreifels
Thank you.

Joyce Mac
Like the difference between a subscription and a membership. You know, it's a sort of a transactional point of view. And so I think underlying what's going on is an opportunity that I think is huge. And I think you would agree based on all the analyses we've seen and the successes that we've seen for public media to evolve its relationship with donors. Whatever happens with federal funding, that is our future.

Jeff Schreifels
Mm-hmm.
Yeah.
Yeah.

Joyce Mac
And I think I will add to that the media environment that we're operating in is challenging. And let's face it, there are a lot of other ways for people to get news information, music programming, entertainment. Linear broadcast consumption is declining. Not just for us, but across the board. And we've been seeing this trend over the past, you can debate about how many years.

Jeff Schreifels
Right.
Yeah. Right. Across the board. Yep.

Joyce Mac
And that has started to affect our ability to raise those small donations.

Jeff Schreifels
Right, yeah.

Joyce Mac
So what in the past major giving was a great to have, it was like additive to our mix. Now that is the one area of revenue because sponsorship is also flat because it's dependent on that linear broadcast. So, you know, my staff calls me a pathological optimist. You know.

Jeff Schreifels
Yeah.
Yep.
I love it.

Joyce Mac
I think that there's a huge opportunity for us here. Given all of the uncertainty in the environment, what I am loving to see is that donors are stepping up, even small donation donors. They know what's going on. They consume news and information, obviously.

Jeff Schreifels
Mm-hmm.
Yeah.

Joyce Mac
A great spring in terms of individual giving.
That's great, but is it sustainable? But it tells me our donors love us.

Jeff Schreifels
Mm hmm. Right. Yeah.
They do. And we've, I mean, we've seen it in the data, your donors love you, you got some of the most loyal donors in public media, you know, they're giving every year, they, you know, and that's a great thing, you know, but it's under the, with the strategy of membership, you know, you're a member and that feels good, you get your little tote bag or whatever it is, and you mug 25

Joyce Mac
BUG.

Jeff Schreifels
25 bucks a month or whatever, you're building, know, public media for years has built a donor base off of that strategy, and it's been fantastic. And what's been lacking is strategies to allow the donor to do more than that. Because they really didn't need it, because they were doing so well on the membership side. You know, yeah.

Joyce Mac
Yeah, well, in audiences were growing and growing and growing, you know, over decades. So, you know, when your individual giving revenue is up, up, up, up, you know, that's how major giving came to be seen as a nice to

Jeff Schreifels
Yeah.
Yeah. And for those that are in public media listening to this, this is also something everyone can learn about because whether you're an arts organization or any type of non-profit that has like membership or, you know, sustainer programs that that's a big part of your file and or small dollar donors, and you've really grown up in direct response, there's an opportunity now on the mid and major gift side to start developing relationships with these donors and knowing that there is a huge potential there that has not been tapped into. And fortunately for public media over the last five years or so, we've really start to see the mid and major gift area starting to grow out, although it's in its infancy really still, you know. So

Joyce Mac
Mm-hmm, absolutely.

Jeff Schreifels
With all this challenges going on, how are you advising all these station managers? Because that's what greater public is about. It's like helping come alongside of these stations and giving them good advice and resources. So what are you saying to them?

Joyce Mac
Well, know, needless to say, we're providing resources around the federal funding challenge. You know, we're not telling stations what to do, but if they're going to fundraise around what's happening with the administration, we give them tools to do that. I think... what I just said about the sustainability question and the opportunity question. It's like, given what's happening in the broadcast space, in decline consumption, how are you investing in providing your service on multiple platforms? How are you investing in bringing your community together and bringing your community closer? And we need a new revenue stream. And what I'm saying is, we're lucky in that. We've already got the people that we need to help us build that, right? We don't have to go out and find new people. We can focus on the people that have already voted for us with their dollars. And I think what I like to say is, yes, it's critically important to hire digital specialists, to hire content producers for different platforms to do experiments and do all those things. If you first invest in mid-level and major giving, you will be producing the revenue that's going to allow you to do all those things. And in an environment where federal funding is uncertain, turn to something that you have control over.

Jeff Schreifels
Yeah.
Yeah. Yeah.
Do you have some examples of some of the stations that are actually thriving through this and have adopted mid and major gifts and what are you seeing?

Joyce Mac
Yes. I'll brag a little bit on you guys, you know, that the stations that have worked with Veritus Group are in a position where they've not only seen growth, but they also have the kind of relationships that are going to lead to transformational giving. And we all know it takes a number of years of relationship building and the right opportunities for donors to invest at that level. The folks that have sort of bought into hiring the staffing and doing the work are in, I think, a very good position to weather any storm.

Jeff Schreifels
Mm-hmm.

Joyce Mac
You don't know what could be in the future. The federal funding is a challenge. There may be other challenges. But, you know, I think folks that have approached this in a disciplined way, you know, and really looked at return on investment in fundraising as a source of future program building, service building, are doing well.

Jeff Schreifels
Right. Yeah.
Yeah.
Yeah.

Joyce Mac
That's not to say that they won't be hurt if federal funding goes away. That would be across the board. Yeah. So kudos to Veritus Group, but mostly kudos to those stations and the station leaders that decided to make that investment. Yeah.

Jeff Schreifels
Yeah. Who had the guts to do it? Yeah.

Jeff Schreifels
You know, I look at what we've been able to do together as a real beacon of hope for a lot of stations and non-profits who are trying to figure out this next thing around relationship-based fundraising and whether they should invest or not. Because, you know, we start out with a pilot with like four stations. You know, we had to prove this and saw phenomenal results, right? I mean, amazing results just in the first two years of this. And now we've seen so many stations go, okay, we need to adopt this. And every one of these stations is performing tremendously who have all set, put in the time and the effort to create these discipline programs.
So it proves out that yes indeed you have these loyal donors and they have much more to give, but we need to ask them. And if you ask, they will come. And I think we've proven that over and over again. So if there's anyone that's like wondering, do we need to start our program? This is the time to do this.

Joyce Mac
Yes. Asking. Asking is a good thing.

Jeff Schreifels
More than ever. I mean, it works. You know?

Joyce Mac
Yeah. Well, I like to say the best time to start a major giving program is five years ago. The second best time is now.

Jeff Schreifels
Yeah, yeah, exactly.
So how do you see public media evolving over the next five, 10 years? And then what's Greater Public's role going to be in all?

Joyce Mac
Yeah. So we actually co-invested in some national research a year ago that we're in the process of rolling out. It really, I think, gives us sort of a set of destinations. And the results of this research very much point to local news and information, local community events, community gathering—you know, it's things that we do, but I think it tells us that there's a much bigger appetite for it than we imagined and that we should not discount the importance of IRL—in real life—people getting together, having common experiences.
You know, I think there's a real hunger for that out there.

Jeff Schreifels
Yeah.
Yeah.

Joyce Mac
And I mentioned before, all media research now is pointing to the same set of behavioral changes, which means less linear consumption, more multi-platform consumption. There's absolutely no reason that, aside from the cost, that these organizations couldn't expand and meet their audiences where they are.
And so I think five years from now, we will still be in the broadcast business, but we will have a much larger footprint, not only on other platforms, but also in our communities.

Jeff Schreifels
Yeah, so I kind of see it in my local, you know, Philadelphia. Like I see WHYY is our local NPR PBS station. You know, you go to a community event, you know, outdoor things, they’re there. WHYY itself, the building has public space, and they're always trying to bring people in there, which is awesome, I think. I think you're right. It's going to get more and more localized.
Like I see WHYY has Billy Penn, which is this online news that is all connected into all the different neighborhoods of Philly. And it's connected to WHYY.

Joyce Mac
Yep, online news.

Jeff Schreifels
That's kind of what you're talking about. There's this more, yeah.

Joyce Mac
Exactly.
Well, and you're spoiled in the Philadelphia market because you also have WXPN, who have an amazing, amazing performance space or spaces—yeah, yeah. And they're bringing the community in on a nightly basis, you know.

Jeff Schreifels
Yes.
Yes, yeah, that's a great exam.
And then we have WRTI, the jazz and the classical station. They hosted this great sing-along at downtown for Christmas time that was unbelievable. And there were thousands of people that showed up. And WRTI is a small little, you know, small station, but...
You can tell like there is deeply connected into Philadelphia and the roots and so that's really interesting. That's how you see it going over the next five to 10 years and I love that.

Joyce Mac
Yeah, and lots of partnerships with other non-profits in the community, you know, for profits who are doing things in the arts. I mean, yeah, even, you know, partnerships between news organizations in the same city. I just think that there's a lot of opportunity to provide more that's local to communities. And I think there's a hunger for it and also a hunger for people to be with like-minded folks, to be with fellow travelers.
And it makes you much bigger than just a radio station. Not that there's anything small about being a radio station, but you know what I'm saying.

Jeff Schreifels
Yeah, yeah. No, right. Yeah, yeah, I see. I hear you.
So Joyce, if you're an executive director or a VP of development for any kind of non-profit, looking at what's going on with public media today, what lessons or advice would you have? What would you give them?

Joyce Mac
Do not underestimate your donors.

Jeff Schreifels
Hmm.

Joyce Mac
Believe in your donors. And if you believe in them, they believe in you. I think there's, in times of uncertainty like this, there's reticence about, well, how much do we ask? Do we keep asking? You know, blah, blah, blah. Donors are gonna give, right? If they know you're in a time of need, they're going to give. So make it easy for them. Right?

Jeff Schreifels
Yeah.
Yeah. Like I like to say, you know, the whole major gift pipeline, we try to make it as easy as possible for donor to give to their heart's content. You know, don't—and then like look at barriers that you put up perhaps internally, externally, whatever those barriers are that prevent donors from giving like they want to give and remove them and give them opportunities.
I think that's...

Joyce Mac
Yep, that's right. That's right.
That's right.

Jeff Schreifels
One of the best things that's happened is that for the first time, public media is giving donors the opportunity to give bigger, you know, beyond that membership, beyond, you know, that same gift they give every year to think bigger about what public media is doing in their local community and providing them with and inspiring them with offers that do have big numbers to them.

Joyce Mac
Yeah, yeah.
Exactly. Exactly. What I want to celebrate is the first major gift to a public media organization that is directed at hiring major giving staff or mid-level giving staff. Because in my mind, Jeff, and those of you watching and listening to this that haven't seen how Veritus takes donor data for organizations and looks at the potential and actually does like a conservative five-year projection of what's possible, I would walk that into my best donors and say, look, you've been amazing. Your impact on this organization has been tremendous. I want to talk to you about an opportunity to quadruple the value of your gift and really leave a lasting legacy by helping us to invest in our fundraising effort. You know, as a donor who wants impact, what...

Jeff Schreifels
Yeah.

Joyce Mac
What better opportunity to put in front of them than to say, gift is going to produce an ROI of X for this organization.

Jeff Schreifels
Yeah, yeah.
It's a great offer for those donors that love to build beyond themselves. That one gift is like, it'll last long time.

Joyce Mac
Yes.
Yes.
Yes. So when either of us hears that one of those gifts has come into public media, we have to get on a Zoom and toast each other with our—

Jeff Schreifels
Yeah.
I'll do that. That would be great.
I would love that. Now, OK, so I know that you're this eternal optimist. I mean, I'm kind of—we're wired the same way, you know. But what makes you hopeful about public media when you ever, you know, there's all this stuff going on, just journalism in general, it's like a dark cloud, but why should we remain hopeful?

Joyce Mac
Yeah, it is.
Because I believe that people want to know what's really happening in the world, in the country, and in their communities. I believe that the population of this country values news and information much more than the forces to bear understand. Journalists are tough. Some of organizations that are pushing back, taking action, challenging things judicially...

Jeff Schreifels
Yeah.

Joyce Mac
I think at the end of the day, there's too much value there for the society for it to shrivel up and die. And it's of course part of a bigger picture and other things that are going on. But in my corner of the world, I say fight, fight, fight. And anytime you're feeling challenged or having a bad day, go read the comments that come in with your—

Jeff Schreifels
Yeah. Yeah.

Joyce Mac
Donations because people really do get where we are and what we need.

Jeff Schreifels
Yeah, I'm sure those comments are amazing right now because it's like, that's the—I mean, that's the beauty of fundraising is that it allows people to partner with you to do something they can't do every day. They're giving you their hard earned money that they've labored for to get as an extension of your mission, right? They're handing that over to say, keep going.

Joyce Mac
Yes.
Yeah.

Jeff Schreifels
Don't stop. We want democracy. We need independent journalism. Yeah. You know, I get—we get—we have this Slack channel at Veritus that is celebrations. And I would say the last month we've had more celebrations around public media, mid-level officers and major gift officers telling us stories of how donors have—

Joyce Mac
Yep, we're on your side.

Jeff Schreifels
Like risen to the occasion, both in the stories that they hear, but also the gifts that they're giving. It's pretty phenomenal.

Joyce Mac
Yeah, yeah. Well, and here's an interesting way to look at this. Unlike many other public media organizations, other non-profits, the consumers of our service are also our donors, right? So like more like a museum or an arts org or whatever, except in our case, it's like en masse our donors. They all feel as though they're invested in what we do.

Jeff Schreifels
Yeah, right.
Right.
Yes.

Joyce Mac
And that, you know, we have a very solid foundation here and I'm very hopeful.

Jeff Schreifels
Yeah. Yeah.
Awesome. Well, with that note, thanks for being on the show today. I really appreciate it. Keep fighting the fight for us all. And for those going... I know.

Joyce Mac
My pleasure.
Absolutely. Public media people are awesome. I have full faith in our colleagues, my colleagues across the system, and the audience, and the donors. Yeah. Keep us in your thoughts, Jeff.

Jeff Schreifels
Will do and for those listening, thanks for joining us today and we'll see you next time.

Joyce Mac
Cheers. I love this mug, Jeff.

Jeff Schreifels
Cheers. All right.