Dealing with Boundaries and Inappropriate Situations with Donors

Jeff Schreifels 

Have you ever been in a situation with a donor that made you feel uncomfortable? Most fundraisers have, and yet many organizations don’t offer much support for dealing with inappropriate behavior from donors. So what do you do when your donor oversteps your personal boundaries? On today’s episode, we’ve invited special guest Rachel Wyley of Culture Kinesis, to talk through the dynamics at play here, and empower you with a few tools to help you respond when these situations occur.

Recorded 

Welcome to the Nothing But Major Gifts podcast from Veritus Group featuring Richard Perry and Jeff Schreifels. Twice a month, we bring you the latest and best thinking about major gift fundraising, so you can develop authentic relationships with your major donors. Here are your hosts, Richard and Jeff.

Jeff Schreifels 

Welcome to the podcast today. I’m Jeff Schreifels. And I have my colleague Karen Kendrick with me today along with a very special guest to talk about a topic that’s often pushed under the rug. As a fundraiser, you are put into a tremendous variety of situations where you’re interacting with donors, their family or friends, and community members. And while I hate to say this, I bet you’ve had at least one situation that was uncomfortable and likely inappropriate. The situations I’m referring to often happen when a donor who has power and money uses that power to either sexually harass or make racist remarks, and/or manipulates or abuses people all in the name of being philanthropic. And from what our team has heard and experienced, we know that it can be challenging to figure out how to respond in these situations.  If you’re a leader, you may feel uncertain on how to support your fundraisers and address the problem head-on. That’s why Karen and I invited Rachel Wyley, Founder and CEO of Culture Kinesis. Rachel has a strategy and a profound way that she recommends for you when responding to inappropriate or uncomfortable situations. And we’re so glad to have her here to share her expertise. Rachel, welcome. And please share a bit about yourself before we get started.

Rachel Wyley 

Thank you, Jeff, I’m always so happy to talk with you both. As you know you’re two of my favorite people. I don’t say that to everybody, only to you all. But always happy to be here with you. As Jeff shared, I’m the CEO and Founder of Culture Kinesis. And we do the work of cultural reimagination, which involves building community, unlearning the things that we need to unlearn, and then creating spaces where we can ideate and we can reimagine what our cultures are, so that we can do the work of diversity, equity, and inclusion.

Karen Kendrick 

Wonderful, Rachel, it’s such a pleasure to have you here today. I know Jeff, and I personally had benefited from your amazing coaching in our lives, and you have so much wisdom to bring. So I’m excited about having this conversation with you. So Jeff, kind of outlined what we’re talking about here. This is the real stuff that really we don’t hear much conversation around in our sector. So let’s start with, how does power play into this for our sector in particular? How does power and money play into what we’re talking about today?

Rachel Wyley 

It’s such an important question. And it goes in so many directions, right? I think about first of all the interplay between power and money. And the way in which, in our sector, as you both mentioned, there’s just not a lot of conversation, because there is such a focus on giving and being able to bring in resources so that the community can benefit, which is true. And I think that as non-profits, we have in particular, I think when you’re a leader in a non-profit space, there’s a responsibility that one has to be able to reconcile the relationship between capitalism and power, and the work that we do. And that can be uncomfortable sometimes, and it can be hard to pin down what the relationship is that we want to be in with it.  And so to your to your exact question, I think, relative to power, we cannot and should not pretend that there are not inherent power dynamics that exists when we’re talking about fundraising. They’re always present. And the identity that both a donor, a board, anybody involved in that fundraising ecosystem, as well as the fundraiser, all of the identities play in a space. And there’s always some inherent dynamic at play. And so I think we should, I think, exercise agency perhaps is the word I’m looking for, but we should be attuned to what those dynamics are. And we should go into interactions assuming that those dynamics will be at play, whether we actively invite them in or not. One, I think in terms of money, right, we are always talking about money in the fundraising space. And I think also evading the conversation in some very interesting ways at moments. At the end of the day, in this country at least, capital is power, right? That is an unwritten, unspoken rule in a lot of ways. And so when we’re talking about money, that can both be an uncomfortable conversation, but also a conversation where there’s a lot of unspoken belief about what a dynamic is and how we talk about that and who holds more power because they have access to more capital because they have capital to give.

Karen Kendrick 

Yeah, so the sense that there’s this sort of idea that if it’s all about the money, it’s okay if it causes some level of harm to our people to get the money. So we’re doing this good out here, and we need this money, but there’s not a conversation about how do we also do good within our own culture, within our own people. So we’re doing good for all. Like, how can we cause harm to do good? Which is what we do many times, right, in how we treat our folks and what we allow to have happen.

Rachel Wyley 

Agreed. Well said.

Karen Kendrick 

So break that down a little bit more, Rachel, and talk a little bit about, Jeff mentioned, you know, we’ve definitely had inappropriate comments made to us as fundraisers. I know I’ve had plenty of my experiences being in a university setting, going to ask a well-respected athletic leader for some funding for my college and being asked to go to his hotel room. And I, you know, my response was, that’s not why I’m here. And then he was no longer interested in talking to me. So, you know, many of those situations, but what if there had been a donor that I was alone with? And there’s so many situations that that fundraisers are in, in this sort of whisper, what’s it called, the whisper club or, you know, other fundraisers are saying, “Hey, don’t get alone with this this donor.” You know, there’s all this stuff done in the background, we want to really kind of open the doors here and talk about it, honestly. So what are we talking about? And how do we best understand what we’re wanting ourselves as fundraisers and leaders around some boundaries and looking at this, honestly?

Rachel Wyley 

Yeah. So much of it is, we have to give voice to the unsaid right? And that that touches so many corners of fundraising, and I won’t go into all those corners, I’ll stay in this corner. But we have to give voice to that which is unsaid. Dealing with situations, comments, etc, that are inappropriate, I think, because to your point, they get forgiven a lot of times because we’re talking about money, and we’re talking about being able to access resources, again, for a community, sometimes I think the conversation either spoken or not, or the internal conversation is, we can forgive that. Because ultimately, to your point, Karen, it’s going to something good. So I think the first thing that I always want folks to think about, whether you’re a leader, whether you, whatever space you occupy, whatever role you play within the fundraising ecosystem, within an organization is, it’s very critical to know what your personal threshold is, versus waiting for someone else to tell you. What is the threshold of inappropriateness, right? We all share, we all have different identities, even within our small group and within our small conversation today. I would expect each of us to have a different threshold, and a different perspective of what it means for someone to approach you inappropriately or to say something inappropriate to you. What I understand that to be is not what everyone else may understand that to be. And so first and foremost, I need to know my definition of that. And I need to understand my threshold.

Jeff Schreifels 

Rachel, can you give me an example? Like, maybe you could share from your own personal, what would be a personal threshold of yours, as somebody who’s working with donors?

Rachel Wyley 

Yes. So I think about my threshold as it relates to my physical safety, what are my physical thresholds? And then what are my psychological thresholds? Physically, for me, I don’t want anyone touching me, right. I want to make sure that there is distance physically between me and any donor so that there’s not any misunderstanding about what the nature of this relationship is, right? I think, again, the unspoken can invite assumptions or things that just muddy the waters in ways that become uncomfortable for me, and perhaps for other folks. Psychologically is clear, but also, I think, more expansive, right, as a Black woman. I know you won’t be surprised by this, because I’ve told you these stories before. But I have been often both astonished and not, by some of the things that folks will say and some of the comments that will be made. So there’s moments when I’ve had folks say to me, you know, “I don’t believe in the concept of people of color.” And want to engage me relative to that. We can talk about that more when we get, you know, further into the conversation. That’s something that I find absurd, perhaps less offensive, but still, to me in this engagement, is not quite appropriate. And there’s ways that I can navigate that conversation. And I know we’ll get to that point. My psychological safety is also important for me as a Black woman to be in spaces where I feel as though I’m constantly contending with someone making inappropriate comments to me about my race, a lot of times about whether or not I deserve to be in the seat that I’m in, you know, in this fundraising ecosystem, especially as a leader, as an executive director. That is something that over time will begin to damage and disintegrate my psychological safety in this space. And that’s equally Important.

Jeff Schreifels 

Yeah, thank you for sharing that. Okay, so why is there such a lack of support for fundraisers in dealing with these situations? And then on top of that, what can leaders do to better protect and care for their staff?

Rachel Wyley 

Yeah. Proactivity is key, I feel like, in everything, right? We’re so good about planning, you know, we have stewardship plans that are years long. And, you know, we know how to plan proactively. But I do think that sometimes we, we don’t take those skills and apply them to other aspects of the work. You know, as a leader, one of my primary responsibilities is to keep my team physically and psychologically safe. And so, because I have had experiences, as I think many, if not most leaders have within this space, where someone has done or said something inappropriate, we should not treat the situation as, “IF it happens, then we will figure out what we do at that point.” We shouldn’t be approaching this from the point at which it happens, when it happens, this is what we are going to do. First is you know, that value of proactivity and that approach of proactivity is key. I think that it also is the responsibility of a leader to bring up the conversation, right? I think that that can be and should be a team conversation, but it is the responsibility of a leader to say, let’s talk about this, because I’m about to send you out into the world, right, on a mission for this organization. And my expectation is yes, that you’re raising money, but not at all costs, not at cost to your physical or psychological safety. And so I think as a leader, there’s a responsibility to make it known that you expect your team to have a threshold, you expect them to come to you and tell you at any point when that threshold is crossed, and that you are positioned to address it the second that it happens. And it’s important that they know exactly how you plan to address it when they come to you and say there’s been a breach, there’s been a problem.

Jeff Schreifels 

Yeah. So how can leaders set up that system that’s supportive of those fundraisers that has those clear protocols for what to do when those inappropriate social situations occur? How would they set that system up?

Rachel Wyley 

Mm hmm. So I think, and this is not the case for everybody, but when I had folks joining my team, very rarely did I not know the donors that I was putting into their portfolio. And so some of it is my own knowledge about who are these people, how do they move, and my responsibility to prepare them in all the ways that I should to be effective in their fundraising, but also, again, to be physically and psychologically safe. There are situations in which in real life, I have had a donor, where I was, or a board member, whoever, where I was, like, I don’t actually want my development manager or my development director in this space by themselves. Not because I fear for their physical safety, that’s a different situation. But I fear, I have concerns about their psychological safety, perhaps, and how the power dynamic might play. And so I will proactively say, “I will join this first meeting with you. I want to set the tone in this space.” Right? And then I want you to go forth, but know that if there’s any, you know, funny business, if there’s any shenanigans, I need you to come back to me and tell me and we need to do a reset. So some of it is leveraging my power and, you know, throwing my weight around in the way that I need to, to be able to be very clear with anybody engaging with my team, this is my expectation for how this is done.

Karen Kendrick 

You know, I’m thinking back to setting your own boundaries. And it’s everything from, am I comfortable taking phone calls or texts from donors after six? You know, maybe that’s fine when we’re in the middle of a big proposal, but not on a regular basis. And so it’s how to set healthy boundaries, like, you know, “Hey, just want you to know that after six, it’s family time for me and I’ll get back to you first thing tomorrow,” and actually do that with donors. So everything from those sort of basic work-life boundaries, all the way to, you know, when am I, it’s okay for me to decide now that I can just walk out and leave if I ever feel uncomfortable. I don’t have to be nice. I don’t have to have an explanation. I mean, one of our folks at Veritus was talking about how she went up, she went to meet a donor at a coffee shop, and he said he’d rather meet at the house. She gets there and he’s in a robe and house shoes. And so you should never have to go in a house with someone in a robe and house shoes. So like, give yourself that permission ahead of time to say, it’s okay to walk away. So there’s like all the different ends of the spectrum, but thinking it through and then having these conversations as a team, about certain donors, about the leader’s got your back, and I think as a leader also, when someone comes to me, believing them and listening and asking what they need me to do. Because I don’t need to be like the savior and the protector of all people. People are empowered to make their own boundaries, but like, okay, well, what would you, do you need me to do something? I will step in, if needed in this situation.

Rachel Wyley 

Agreed. And I think Karen, that makes me think about in terms of a strategy and a process, right. So often, we do see, to your point about donors calling at all hours and things like that, board members, whoever it is that you’re engaging with, that could be a fellow staff member as well. Also an HR conversation about what is appropriate conduct within a team, different conversation. But I also think that there’s this belief that because a donor, again, someone who has capital and this influence and power and say, because they chose to reach out to us at 7:30pm, that we owe them a call at 7:45pm. I’ll talk to you tomorrow, right? Like, it’s after the work day. And I may need to explicitly set that expectation, if it’s a repeated issue and it’s a repeated interruption. But I also always wanted my team to understand and needed to model this for them. A donor calling me at eight o’clock does not mean that I owe them a call back tonight. I can talk to them tomorrow, right? This is a business relationship. If my mother calls me at eight o’clock at night, I’m gonna call her back. That’s my mother. This is a business relationship. This is a partnership of a different kind. We don’t, again, that money in that power piece that starts to really taint I think, what many of us agree is appropriate. We don’t have to feed into it all the time, we can slow down and say, what choices do I have in this situation? And one of the choices is, I will give you a call back tomorrow.

Karen Kendrick 

I remember once as an interim E.D., I was probably 30 years old, we had a board member and a big donor, kept coming in the office and making our office manager really uncomfortable, coming around her desk, doing all those sort of actions. And so here I am 30 years old, he’s a lawyer, twice my age, sitting down with another board member to have this conversation. But leaders need to step into those uncomfortable spaces. And your people need to know that you’ve got their back. And that you’ll even make decisions around which donors are going to stay with the organization or which donors really need to go, depending on what level of this we’re talking about.

Rachel Wyley 

Yes. And this is where the rubber ultimately meets the road a lot of times because ultimately, I think the question as leaders that we have to ask ourselves is, and I think folks who don’t identify as a leader or don’t hold a leadership position, questions that if it’s not brought up, you may need to ask of your leadership team or of the person that you report to. If this were to happen, right, what is going to be the outcome? If we have somebody who’s giving half a million dollars to this organization, are the rules different? And ultimately I think that’s where organizations get themselves in trouble. And leaders often don’t make the best call, in my opinion. And we understand the pressure on some level, right? You have a goal you have to meet. If someone comes to you and says this donor made me feel uncomfortable, your mind might go to the math first. Like, what are we going to do if this donor gets offended and pulls out? That’s a very real question. I think we can be honest about that. That’s a real worry. And this is why we have to proactively establish what it is that we’re going to do. Because then there’s no choice point. We said we’re going to do this. This is how I’m gonna follow up. This is the role that I’m going to play. This is how I step in. It does not change because we’re talking about a high net worth individual.

Karen Kendrick 

So, Rachel, let’s talk a little bit about tools for fundraisers. I mean, what do I say or do if someone says, I mean, as a white fundraiser, I’ve definitely heard racist comments, sexist comments, classist comments, you know, how do we address those? And what is our role in that? Is it, I’m just supposed to listen to anything that someone says because they’re a donor, they give money, it’s their belief system? How can we maneuver in that setting?

Rachel Wyley 

Karen this is both a tricky question and not. You know what I mean? There’s, there’s, it’s tricky and not. I think that where I will begin is that this is where threshold comes back into play. Right? So for myself, two-time Executive Director, even though you both know, I didn’t want to be two-time Executive Director, you see a lot of stuff, right? You see a lot of things on your own part, you see things that happen with your team. There’s a level of positional power that I had as Executive Director to be able to say in a conversation with someone, “Actually, that’s inappropriate and we will not have this conversation.” I have no issue doing that. Someone who is a development manager who may be in their first position right, they may not feel that they have the positional power to be able to do that and may take on a level of worry that just, in my opinion as a leader, is not theirs to hold, right, which, again, the proactivity. It’s not the job of my team to have to assess whether or not they need to make space for someone’s inappropriateness, because of a revenue goal. Right? It’s my job to be very clear with them. So ultimately, I think this is where that threshold comes back in. I also feel some of it is personality. You all know this about me, I think you both think that I’m lovely. And you’re very generous in that way. I also have no problem being combative with people. Not in a way that is, you know, disrespectful. I don’t believe in disrespect. But I have no issue with challenging people on the things that they say. And really, I think calling them to the mat and asking them to be responsible for what it is that they’ve just tried to hand to me. Right, like you dropped this, here you go. Hand it back to people. Everyone does not move in that way. And everyone does not have that level I think of, of perhaps confidence, especially when you don’t possess that positional power to be able to confront someone in that way.

Karen Kendrick 

So what might that sound like Rachel?

Rachel Wyley 

So the the example that I gave you about a donor saying to me, after we had had a very long conversation about, you know, the reason why it’s important to invest in students of color in this particular way, and how it you know, what the positive impact was, after listening to me for probably about 10 minutes, he chose to tell me that he doesn’t believe in the concept of people of color. And it stunned me on some level, but just for a quick second, it stunned me. And I think what I learned in that moment is that I can give myself permission to slow down my own synapses and slow down a process and communication with someone, right? So someone has chosen to hand me something that I think is ignorant. And I don’t have to respond right away. Right, I can stop and think and say, I probably did say, “That’s really interesting that you would say that. Here’s a question that I have for you. As a white man, how did you arrive at that conclusion?” And just leave it there. That’s actually not mine to hold, right? I’m very clear that people of color exist. I’m very clear that that is a real thing. And so some of it is, on principle, I actually refuse to hold that. But if I hadn’t reminded myself that I can slow down, I might come back with something that actually has me taking much more responsibility for that ignorant comment than is mine to hold.

Karen Kendrick 

What do you mean by that? Explain that a little bit more. I love what you’re saying. But let’s make that even a little bit more real for folks.

Rachel Wyley 

Yeah. So in my mind, any conversation is an opportunity to grow, right? And we step into the opportunity or we do not, right? Now, again, we’re talking about physical safety as a separate component in my mind, from psychological safety. Both impactful, but I see that as separate. This is something that has the potential to impact my psychological safety as a Black woman, that someone is offering to me and I’m questioning what is the motivation of someone to do this right? What is it again, him trying to flex because he has power and capital? Is he trying to see that if he says this to me, am I going to get flustered and get upset, and then he has an excuse to say, you know, I’m not giving any money to this person. What is happening here? And if I take that on internally, this now has become my burden to figure out. This is actually not mine to figure out, This is an opportunity for me to, by asking a question, set a boundary with him of, you’re actually not going to say just anything in this space. And if you do choose to say just anything, I will ask you to help me understand how you arrived at that place. What’s interesting about this donor, and then I’ll pause, is that we had this interaction and it then opened up this conversation to talk about, you know, why we have categories for people of color, right? What it means to be marginalized, how that is different than his positioning as someone who was white with power and influence and capital. And he was able to receive that. Now, again, he was talking to the Executive Director. I don’t know that he Would have engaged with my development manager in that way. I feel probably pretty clear that he would not have. And yet, it allowed us to then have multiple other conversations. He gave every year for five years after that, or something like that. And so there was an opportunity to salvage the relationship and the interaction, but also to help him understand I will actually not hold this for you. And also to help him understand too, and this is a whole separate conversation. I promise I will pause after this. Donors, board members, anybody involved in this, folks at foundations, they can learn. Right? You haven’t capital does not make you an expert on everything. And so some of it is insisting I think on a bi-directional relationship.

Jeff Schreifels 

Exactly. That’s a great story. I would have loved to have been a fly on the wall and listen to that conversation.

Rachel Wyley 

I would have loved you both to have been there. Actually I think maybe not because I think I would have known like, I got my people with me, I probably would’ve showed out. So.

Jeff Schreifels 

Yeah, the way you handled that, that’s amazing. That whole process that you outline could be used for so many conversations, especially in today’s world where it feels so, you know, the fever has ratcheted up in this country. The left, the right, and we’re not talking to one another and having conversations, we’re yelling at one another. And it was really interesting hearing that story. So I have to ask you, so let’s say somebody is watching here today, and they’ve had an experience like this, and it hasn’t been addressed yet. What could they do now to try and address it again with their organization?

Rachel Wyley 

Yeah, I think again, it depends on whether we’re talking about physical safety, or we’re talking about psychological safety. And let me also be really clear about this. I think about physical safety and psychological safety as different. Based again, in the level of positional power that I had. You may feel differently, a person may feel differently. And that’s not for me to decide for someone. So I don’t think it should ever be considered too late – and you didn’t say this, but I’m adding to this, right – too late to address something that has happened. I think a prompt address is best because ultimately, we would love to, I would love to make sure that my team is not dealing with something on an ongoing basis and weighing whether or not they should tell me.  So back to that kind of proactive expectation setting, I want leaders to tell their teams, you come to me the first time that this happens, so that I can support you in that. That said, to your question, it’s never too late, and so what I would encourage someone to do is bring that to the team, even still, and open a conversation about it, and ask for what you need right? Now, it’s important to note also, you may ask for what you need, and that may be, “Can you come to this next meeting with me? Because I’m not feeling safe. But I want to see, you know, I want to get your read on it, I want to continue the relationship as best I can.” At the end of the day, I think that because it’s not too late, it’s important to make sure that whatever the situation is, there’s been some movement toward resolution of it. I think at the very least, it opens up a conversation that can be a learning opportunity for the future, a learning opportunity for peers.  For me, as a leader, it’s never too late for me to address something that comes up. And ultimately, if someone comes to me and says, I feel like my safety is compromised, or I’m in an inappropriate situation with someone, I want to see for myself. I want to see what’s going on so I can assess. But I think those things need to be documented. And I also think that there needs to be some very clear action taken, a conversation had whatever the case, I mean, it can look like a lot of different things. But do not miss the opportunity to ask your leadership to step in and support you. Right, they have expectations of you, and you get to have expectations of the people who are managing you.

Karen Kendrick 

I just want to mention that Jeff and I were at a conference and heard a great panel on this. And that organizations are actually really doing this. Like UNC Chapel Hill had a whole system, had a whole protocol, had a counselor, had color flags for certain donors, had just donors that they would no longer take revenue from. And it was like, they really created a whole system. And so for those fundraisers in that system to feel that support was beautiful. So I wanted to come back, Rachel, for a minute to the piece around, as leaders, we need to hear folks when they come to us. And I want to give some examples of what do we do as leaders that can cause someone not to feel like they’re being heard? And we don’t necessarily mean to do it, but I want to break that down so that we’re clear.

Rachel Wyley 

Yes. To me, this is about, and this is also something, PS, that as leaders we can prepare for right? In the same way that we should be having a proactive conversation with our team about this could happen, and so let’s make a plan for it. And let’s make sure that you know how I’m going to move when that happens. I think there’s, there’s also inherent in that, that as a leader, you need to prepare for the moment that someone comes to you and says, “This happened.” And you need to know what your step one is. I think the key point of contention is likely to be, this is, and it almost always is, someone who is high powered high net worth, right, who is who is leveraging that power and influence that they have, in a non-positive way, in a negative way, in a harmful way. And so I think the preparation that a leader must do is think about, quite literally, scenario planning. If someone comes to me and says, this half a million dollar donor, this board member, the board president, whoever, right, this president of the foundation, whoever it is, did this thing, my job is to step in. My job is to make sure that I hear them completely. And that I also know my tendencies and my fears, right? If I know for myself, my mind is first going to go to, how are we going to make this money up, if this person pulls their funding, be honest with yourself about that and prepare for what you’re going to do when it happens.  I think also, so much of leadership, in my mind, is about accountability. And so often, we choose to operate in silos. I think that we can also ask and should ask other folks to hold us accountable to this. So do I have a peer leader who I can run these things by right? Confidentiality is important, yes, but who I can run situations by, who can check me and say, “Rachel, I don’t care how much money that person is giving. Like, this is just not appropriate. You told me that you were going to protect your team.” And so I think building an accountability as well. Because ultimately, building an accountability as well, period. We all have more than just ourselves to answer to, right, at the end of the day, if we miss out on this money, because I made a call and I said, you know, as I promised to, something inappropriate happened, we need to shut this down, we need to address this. And whoever was the person who committed that offense has a response and that then means that we have less revenue to work with, I also need to think about the repercussions of that. At the risk of rambling, I will say this, I think it is also important that you’re having this conversation with your team, you know, with your development team, but also perhaps with your board, right? They need to be bought into this too. So I can come to you and say we’re not doing this anymore, because it’s compromising my team’s safety and ability to do their jobs. No matter what amount of money it is. And I need them to also be bought into that.

Karen Kendrick 

You know, what’s coming up for me is, I can really listen to be present to what someone’s sharing and I don’t have to make any decision about what I’m going to do about it in the moment. So me asking questions that sound like are you sure that’s what they meant? Are you sure they really, that was their intention, really will shut someone down. So I need to allow that space for discussion. Because we’re not saying anytime anybody does anything inappropriate, they’re out. We’re saying, you know, we need to have a protocol and know what these pieces are. And in the moment, just listen. Even though you may be having thoughts like, “Oh, my God, this is a huge donor.” Step back for a minute, you don’t have to make a decision right then. Just be present to the person sharing.

Rachel Wyley 

Yes, but it’s a value check as well. Right? Ultimately, if I value folks’ personal safety, right, if I value, all the things that I say that I do, and money makes me question those values, then I really need to sit with those values again.

Jeff Schreifels 

Awesome. Rachel, thank you so much for joining us today. I miss you. We need to have more conversations.

Rachel Wyley 

I miss you too.

Jeff Schreifels 

This has been a really good conversation and I hope it’s given you some good tools to deal with boundaries and inappropriate situations with your donors. If you want to connect more with the work Rachel’s doing at Culture Kinesis, which I highly think you should do, you can click on the link to check out her website in the episode description. And if you want to learn more about how Veritus Group Can support you in creating healthy boundaries, and having the resources you need to respond in these kinds of situations, we’d love to connect with you. You can reach out to us at the link in the episode description or by emailing us at hello@veritusgroup.net. Thank you and we’ll see you next time.

Recorded 

Thank you for joining us for the Nothing But Major Gifts podcast from Veritus Group. Richard and Jeff also write an ongoing blog that you can subscribe to for free at veritusgroup.net. Please join us again next time.