Moving From Money to Mission: How to Transform Donor Conversations

Jeff Schreifels 

When you talk to donors about your organization, is your focus on the money, or on the mission? If you’re too laser-focused on the financial side of your operations, you’re missing out on the chance to share your passion with the donor. For this podcast episode, Richard and I are off. So we’ve invited a special guest to join Karen Kendrick, our Senior Director of Learning, to help us discover what it means to speak in terms of your mission. Luke Wilson, CEO of A Rocha, Canada, will share how focusing on his organization’s mission has transformed his conversations with donors. And as you’re listening in, think about your own elevator pitch, and whether it’s working to engage donors with your mission in a meaningful way.

Recorded 

Welcome to the Nothing But Major Gifts podcast from Veritus Group featuring Richard Perry and Jeff Schreifels. Twice a month, we bring you the latest and best thinking about major gift fundraising so you can develop authentic relationships with your major donors. Here are your hosts, Richard And Jeff.

Karen Kendrick 

Welcome to the podcast today. I’m Karen Kendrick, Richard and Jeff are off today. Recently, we received an inspiring note from one of our coaches about Luke Wilson, CEO at A Rocha, an environmental stewardship organization. Luke also manages a small caseload as part of his role and is committed to taking The Veritus Way to heart. Luke was able to shift his conversations to be more open and meaningful by moving from a posture of talking about money to talking about mission. The shift has been transformational for him. And so we invited him to join the podcast today. Welcome, Luke. And thanks so much for joining us.

Luke Wilson 

Thanks for having me, Karen. It’s good to be here.

Karen Kendrick 

It’s good to have you, Luke. Thank you so much. And I want you to do a quick introduction before we get started, so people can hear a little bit more about you.

Luke Wilson 

Sounds good. So, A Rocha is a mix of biologists, birders, and Bible folk. I know that one’s not as in vogue as maybe “faith-based,” but we’re trying to live out God’s call to care for creation and equip others to do likewise. So we’ve got community-based conservation projects around the world. Here in Canada, I’m responsible for four nature centers. And if you visit one of these places, it’s alive with kids running around through forests and rivers and you know, as many different species of animal that we can find and track and take care of, as best as we can, their habitat. And it’s also got quite a community feel to it. So at our center, particularly in BC, on the west coast of Canada, you’ll see meals with about 50 people at lunchtime, most days. So it’s a beautiful expression and a hands-on expression of trying to take care of the planet. And this gift that we’ve been given.

Karen Kendrick 

I love that, you’re talking my language. Nature and animals and kids and community. That’s beautiful. Tell us a little bit about yourself as well.

Luke Wilson 

Yeah, yeah. So I got involved with A Rocha in 2009, summer of 2009. And I had always had both environment and faith as part of my upbringing. My grandfather was an engineer that designed wastewater treatment plants. And my dad finished his career in hydrogen energy, which is kind of a new energy source that might provide some hope for emissions reductions. And so you know, those conversations were alive and real through my upbringing. And it was only natural when I found A Rocha to bring together faith and environment. So when I showed up at one of our centers in BC, had a beautiful local meal under Douglas fir trees, and a harvest table with lots of people sitting around and I just felt like, Oh, I’m home. These are my people. So I started volunteering at that time, cutting grass on the big lawn mower through our nature center. Yeah. And then, you know, raising support is part of our staff fundraising model. So the president at the time Markku, one of the founders, asked, Hey, would I like to raise some support? And I’d never done that before. But I started doing that and I kind of enjoyed it. You know, at first it’s a bit nerve-wracking, and there’s a challenge to it, but I really enjoyed getting to be with people and hear their stories and see them come alive when they heard about the mission. And so fast forward to today, I’ve been in the leadership role at A Rocha since 2019, just before the pandemic, And yeah, so it’s been quite a bit of fundraising, lots of work with the board. Leading our leaders is a big part of my role. And then I’m a liaison with our international organization. So I get to spend quite a bit of time with leaders around the world. And it’s a great privilege and joy. I’m from Hamilton, Ontario, sort of the end of the Great Lakes, Great Lake Ontario. And I’ve got a family of five and a little cute cockapoo. And we just love our neighborhood and the parks. And when I didn’t have kids, I was beekeeping quite a bit. So that was one of my hobbies that connects with my work. So I love doing that.

Karen Kendrick 

That’s so cool. Thank you for sharing all that. Okay, so first, we want to set the problem up, right, that we see in so many non-profits. The approach that many non-profit leaders take with donors is to focus on the money versus talking about the mission and really understanding donors’ passions and interests, and how that then connects right to the mission. So look, I know you’ve made this transition as an executive director, you’re carrying a caseload as well, so can you share a little bit about the challenges you initially faced and how you approached this? And then what are some of the results? Share some stories, or story, with us to get us started, and then we’ll dive a little bit more into this.

Luke Wilson 

Yeah, so I mean, I’ve been fundraising for almost 14 years now. And I think that, even up until recently, it’s been difficult to not put the money first. And Veritus was part of learning how to put donors at the center, and put mission alongside that. You know, learning the Veritus model of discovering passions and interests of donors and trying to have meaningful conversations, not just transactional, where you’re trying to get to that point of a gift, or, you know, maybe we’ll talk about a gift. That’s a temptation in this work. And I’d be lying to say that, you know, I’ve perfected it, or I’m fully done with that model. It’s hard.

Karen Kendrick 

Come on, you’ve got this down. That’s great. Such humbleness.

Luke Wilson 

Yeah. Right. But you know, I think I’ll share a story in a minute. But what I’d love to dive into after that is, I think part of it is, how do we measure success? So, you know, are we measuring success based on the numbers and the money? Or are we measuring success, from what I’ve learned with Veritus, by was this conversation meaningful? So, you know, a story that comes to mind, and part of the reason you invited me on this podcast so graciously, was just at the tail-end of the summer, I felt like, I needed to shift my approach a little bit, I needed to shift my energy and time. And I find that summer is a good time to test things. So I was doing a training course on networking, and I was thinking about the fundraising season, you know, typically from September to December is more intense. And, I think I put into practice some of the things that Veritus had taught, and some of the things that I learned in this networking course, and I bumped into a friend of mine. And she asked the classic question, you know, how are things going at A Rocha? And when when I have those impromptu conversations in the past, I think at times, I would shy away from putting the my full energy and heart out there, you know, for fear that somebody’s worrying that I’m going to just ask them for money. And so that would, in the past, make me avoid sort of digging in deeper to the story and the mission, but this time, I felt like I could share with a new degree of passion and energy, “Hey, you know what, it’s been a really exciting summer. All our leaders gathered in France and I got to meet many of them for the first time. And it was filled with this real sense of joy and hospitality. And our mission is this global group of people taking seriously this call to do hands-on conservation work. And I was inspired by so many of the people who are doing that in tough contexts.” And then I went into a bit more of a local story, you know, “And in Canada, we’re excited about this heritage barn renovation, where we can welcome more people and teach more kids.” And I kind of left it there. But there was clearly curiosity and interest from this person’s story. And so we got into a great conversation, I didn’t feel like I needed to ask for money. I didn’t feel like, you know, it got into a donor kind of conversation, even though it was. And then three weeks later, lo and behold, she texts me and she says, you know, that conversation was a really good one, and I got to know about your work. And I’m on this board with a thrift store that likes to tithe and would you be open to a proposal? So, you know, I’ll confess that at first I thought, okay, should this be my work, or should I hand this off to another fundraiser? Is this where I should invest my time? And then she said, yeah, they give away $100,000 to $200,000, quarterly.

Karen Kendrick 

Wow, quarterly!

Luke Wilson 

A very generous thrift store. So fast forward, we did the proposal, I worked with her, we didn’t get the gift. So this isn’t like a heroic success story. But maybe it is. Because I did develop a deeper relationship with this person. And I feel like she’s in the mix of our mission, she’s a partner now. So I fully expect that down the road, we’ll be having more conversations, she’ll be keeping her eyes out for opportunities that fit our mission and vision. And yeah, and I didn’t feel like I had to sell something or sell my soul to, to really develop a meaningful relationship.

Karen Kendrick 

Wow, there’s so much to unpack in that. I love actually, that the story didn’t end in the money. Because it is about creating those real authentic partnerships. And when we say, you know, the donor at the center, we never mean the donor’s driving your mission, or your programs, or any of that stuff that can happen in our world. But it’s really about how to bring them alongside, find out their interests and passions. But what’s interesting to me is, when we feel like we have to go after the money, you were mentioning that you would have just not talked that much, right? It can either, it can kind of shut us down or make us obnoxious because then we’re like, every conversation, we’re looking for the angle to bring that in. And I know what that feels like when someone’s doing that to me. Like they’re not really there to listen or be with me or care about my heart. They’re just looking for like, oh, since you mentioned that, we’ve got this thing. So it was beautiful that you practicing being present to her and present to your passion and connecting all that led to such a nice opportunity. And as you see, it was a meaningful connection. And now you’ve got a lifetime partner that who knows where it’ll go.

Luke Wilson 

Exactly.

Karen Kendrick 

It’s so funny. Like, you know, in non-profits, we’re about a mission, all of us have something we’re passionate about. And then it seems like we forget that those we’re serving, the staff at our non-profit, the donors, that we’re all humans and need to create this, like, we need to be around that table under the fir trees, like you mentioned, like we need that community, we need to all be listening to each other, present to each other, learning from each other. Versus sort of this, we’re just going to use everybody to get a mission accomplished. And maybe never even have those authentic connections and partnerships. So I love that story.

Luke Wilson 

And the opposite shuts down conversation so quickly. You know, you can just see it when you, and I’ve done it, and I’ve been there, when you approach it from that money perspective, people lose interest really fast. And, you know, we’re, like you said, we’re creatures of the heart. And so we can sense that really fast. But on the on the flip side when we’re talking about mission, people light up, and they lean in and they connect. Yeah.

Karen Kendrick 

Yeah. And we’ll talk, I think we’ll break that down a little bit more, what’s it mean to talk about mission? Because in the past, some non-profits are just like, “We do this and we do that and we’re great.” So we’ll break some of that down here in a little bit, too, because that’s important. So Luke, I love that story. I would love to hear more from you about why you think fundraisers and leaders struggle so much to move from conversations focused on money, you know, that fear-based, I got to make this happen, to being focused on mission and relationship.

Luke Wilson 

Well, I think first it goes back to how we measure success. It’s so tempting to measure success by numbers, and particularly dollar signs and the number of digits behind that dollar sign. At I think we’re ingrained in that kind of culture from young ages. So I’m not saying that that’s bad inherently. But I think it’s very easy to put the dollar sign as the top measure of success. So I think the way to combat that struggle is to practice pressing into meaningful conversations with people. And then even going back and reflecting on those conversations and not paying attention to just the numbers, or how high of a capacity this person had. But did we have a meaningful connection? Did something new spark for this person? Or were they truly engaged? Could you see it in their eyes that they were excited about the potential of of doing something good in the world, making a difference? So I think that’s one of the reasons we struggle.

Luke Wilson 

And then I think the other is the heart posture of scarcity, compared to abundance. And I’m familiar with this one, too, you know, I’ve learned a lot about the dance between those things. I don’t think you’re ever fully in one category, all the time. But, you know, the scarcity mentality says, “Christmas is coming, I’ve got to do as much fundraising as I can so I can hit the target by the end of Christmas.” Whereas I think the abundance mentality recognizes, you know, “I’m going to do what I should do in this time, I’ve got a plan, especially if you’ve got a caseload and, you know, if you’re using the Veritus model of having a plan for every donor, I’m just going to faithfully do what I’ve said I should do in this time, to the best of my ability, and I’m not in control of the end result. I can only do the work.” And so I think I’ve made that switch, especially the calendar year-end where it’s not as much of a panic, because, as I’ve experienced fundraising, I’ve realized, yeah, I don’t know what’s going to happen at the end of the year. Sometimes I’m surprised both ways, you know, a really surprising gift comes in that I had nothing to do with or the number’s a lot lower than what I expected. And if I’m swayed by that, you know, up and down of different numbers, then, you know, it takes me away from being in that abundance mentality where, I want to be grateful for the gifts that have been given because it’s coming from a place of generosity and openness and people’s connection with with doing something good in the world. So I think those are the two big reasons why I struggle and maybe people struggle.

Karen Kendrick 

Yeah, those are beautiful. I was thinking about the whole fear-based, that pressure, especially in the fall, the holiday season. “I’ve got to make it all happen.” And if our top priority that we’re valuing is getting the money in the door, and we don’t have a relationship, a plan, a long-term look at where we are with the donor, where we want to go, working toward that, it’s so easy to get into, “Okay, I got to thank them really quickly and ask again, I got to ask more.” Our whole system, internally is going to be tight, right? In fight or flight, in fear. And that’s the vibe, the emotions, the body language we’re coming across to donors with. And just how that shuts down creating connection and meaningful conversations and being with them and kind of tuning in to what’s coming up and hat they’re excited about. What you see in their eyes, and when they light up, and then journeying on down that path. So talk a little bit about what helped you. You mentioned, like The Veritus Way, we have a plan and goal for every donor, talk a little about that transition. We all slide back into fear, that’s really normal, but what helped you lean into trusting that more relationship-focused approach?

Luke Wilson 

Yeah, great question. You know, I think, I like systems. So having a place where I could go back and on the plan and say, Oh, here’s what I did last time. And here’s what happened in the conversation. I think that gives me more confidence to know, is this the right time to invite somebody into a conversation about a proposal or a project? You know, sometimes I sense when I look back at what’s happened in the relationship, “Oh, you know, I think we need more time.” And I’ll have a touch point, that’s more of a, “you made a difference” touch point and see what happens there. And other times, I’m surprised where somebody in the midst of the conversation says, “Hey, you know what, you sent me this news story, and it really inspired me, because I connected with the salmon project that you’re working on, and I really love fish.” And I feel like there’s an open door to say, “Hey, we’ve we’ve actually got, you know, we’re working on a hatchery. And this is an area that you might want to be invested in. Do you want to have a conversation about that?” So I think the plan gives you freedom to listen to the donor and where they’re actually at, but then also to remember what the past connection’s been, and not make a decision for a person, but sort of take me out of the, it takes me out of my head or the sort of the dance of, “What should I do?” And sort of gives me some direction for the relationship. And maybe what’s next in terms of the connection point. Yeah, I think that’s, there’s probably more there.

Karen Kendrick 

We’ll keep digging. So let’s talk a little bit about those conversations, right, that you just mentioned, you have in your story. And you know, so many times when you talk to donors, like “Tell me about, you know, why you started giving to our organization, what’s kept you here?” And they’re just like, “I just love you all, you’re great!” Right? They say these sort of broad feedback. And so it’s not always easy to know, the tools we use are Permission-Based Asking model communication model at Veritus. But talk a bit about your journey of getting developing those skills. I’m sure you already had many of them, but really honing those skills on having those meaningful conversations. What helped you in that journey?

Luke Wilson 

We see that a lot. And “that” being, “I just love the whole big picture of the organization.” Because, you know, we use the term “creation care.” That’s a massive, there’s a lot of possibilities of what that could be. And, you know, honestly, people have been drawn into A Rocha because of the story, because the bigger story. If they’re a person of faith, it’s often the biblical story and sort of this capturing their imagination that it’s part of what it means to be a person of faith, to care for God’s creation. And so it has been difficult for us to shift. And not that that’s a bad start, I think that’s a great start. But to really get to know a person and why did that big vision inspire them? You know, I think you have to get into their story. So Veritus has given great framework and questions and sort of helped me in that dance of interrogation versus a bit of investigation, and inspiration on the positive side. So knowing when to ask an open question that, you know, opens the door to their story and why they care about eagles, or why they care about trees, or this particular place. And, you know, often the way that I go about it is to ask them about where they live, what they like about the place that they’re in. And because every place is so different, there’s a unique story behind, you know, why they walk along the trail at this particular river and when they love to see this woodpecker on that tree. And I think because, you know, because their heart is for nature, they’ve often got a story that either inspired them as a kid or a practice that they do now. And those stories usually tell me, where I can start to focus in on their passions and interests. And then from there, I try and ask them, you know, a transitioning question and an open question that tries to dig into, is this program area the right fit for you? “You know, you said, you really enjoyed being a camp counselor at the lake. And so, do you like environmental education? Like, is that what you really love? Because we’ve got kids running around our centers, and it feels a lot like camp. Do you want to talk a little bit more about that?” So it’s connecting with their story, in a particular place and time. And then sharing a little bit about the amazing stories that happen every day in our work. And trying to bridge that world so they can imagine and see what’s happening on the ground with the work that A Rocha is facilitating. And really make that leap from, “Okay, I want to support A Rocha,” to, “Here’s the difference I want to make in the world, here’s the impact I want to make.” And it’s a journey, it doesn’t just happen in one conversation. So

Karen Kendrick 

I love that. So instead of being like, “I’ve been reviewing your donations with us for the last several years. You usually give $5,000 and $10,000. Would you consider a gift of $15,000 this year to help us?” Versus being on the journey of getting to know them, their passions, connecting them, sharing back the difference, and then saying things like, hey, there’s a new project, or there’s some things we’re working on, are you interested in talking further about the need there? And then going into what that is. That’s such a different space than, “Hey, you gave $5000 last year. Would you consider $10,000?” Which has no connection to heart or passion or story or meaning? It’s just grabbing, getting the money, right?

Luke Wilson 

That’s right. That’s right. And you know, as a CEO, I’m looking at the reports and the numbers on a regular basis. So it’s tempting for me to go, oh, our budget’s a little low, I need to go reach out to this person and say, Hey, we’re not going to meet our budget, but that’s just dull. Nobody wants to support a budget. Whereas if I’m, you know, doing my best to connect with what are the stories on the ground, and I’ve got something fresh that I can share with somebody, I think that’s part of the role too, is even as a leader in the organization, trying to stay connected with real stories of impact on the ground so that you can speak with integrity and with passion when those moments come, to shift away from the numbers and the money side to the impact that’s possible.

Karen Kendrick 

What’s popping up into my head is also bringing in sort of the opposite, in the sense that, as we’re building this connection and community, we have to also watch our own story about money, right? So if I’m really good at building community, finding interests and passions, telling the difference, but I’m not willing to ask boldly or believe that bigger things are possible. Or don’t ask for direct amounts, or wait too long out of fear. If you use our Permission-Based Asking model, you really can’t offend a donor, because you’re asking permission the whole time, if they’re ready to have the conversation, even if they’re ready to hear the ask amount. So talk a little bit about your journey there of unpacking your relationship to money and being really courageous and generous and putting big possibilities in front of donors, and how that’s different within the context of the relational fundraising model.

Luke Wilson 

Yeah, great question. Well, I’m not sure if it was through Veritus. But I heard recently that, you know, asking for a large gift isn’t offensive, you know, it actually opens up the door to say, here’s an opportunity I think you could be part of. And like you said, if you’ve used the permission based model, you’re not going to offend a person, even by a large aspirational gift. And on the tail end, using that circle of connecting, even if they’re saying no, which I experienced recently in that story of the thrift store and the relationship there. You know, I had the ability in my training and practice, to not be overcome by that “no,” that that wasn’t a dig on me or a dig on the organization, or, you know, that it was a sign of it not being successful. I actually had the ability to say, thank you. Thanks for walking with me in this journey. And here’s a little story about the way that people do make a difference and not letting that “no” be the end. I think that’s part of the story. But you’re asking about, you know, the number and when do you, not shying away from actually putting specifics in front of people. And I think, when I’m following my plan, I’ve pre thought about where’s the right stage, to present a proposal or to ask. And part of that is, you know, after working with Diana, realizing (she’s my Veritus Coach), realizing that, let’s use historical giving as a placeholder for where in the year might I want to ask, but as I am relating with that person, oftentimes, I’ll hear something that they say, and it’ll connect with a project that’s going on. And I’ll think I may need to bring that to them. Because if I didn’t, I would be missing an opportunity, and they would be missing an opportunity to make a difference and to do something that they want to do in the world. So even though I’ve got a plan, I’m also finding moments where, you know, there’s a real need, and I want to share that with you because I think you might be interested in this. And that’s because I know the person, and I know the work. And I’m just bridge building. You know, there’s a person who likes energy efficiency, and the story that comes to mind is we need a heat pump in one of our nature centers. And so I thought oh, this person would want to know that this is a need right now. So yeah, I think it’s a combination of sticking with your plan and seeing that, anticipating three months from now there’s a big number, a big ask coming up, and what am I doing to prepare for that? And then also being willing to be flexible a little bit based on the needs in the organization and the potential impact that person could make.

Karen Kendrick 

I love that because it can be so easy to get trapped in this annual giving mentality that they give every December; I will leave them alone. I’ll just send out some touch points. And so it’s more about what do they care about and what comes up as a possibility? Maybe they, we have a lot of stories of donors giving even a bigger gift than normal in December. And then in January, February, something comes up and being offered the opportunity, and giving again significantly and being thrilled about it. So, you know, we limit ourselves and thinking sometimes around when they give, how much they give. And so instead of us deciding for them, be in relationship and see what’s coming, what comes up, and what possibilities to share. I love that.

Luke Wilson 

That’s right. I’ve got one more story there. Karen, if I could share it.

Karen Kendrick 

Yes.

Luke Wilson 

So I think the other side is, patience is required. You know, I’d been in a conversation with someone for two years. And I had been coached by Diana to not give up, and to be patient. And I continued to foster relationship and get to know their passions and interests, and learned that this person was a water guy. That was his phrase, “I’m a water guy.” So I would just keep sharing stories about our work with rivers and First Nations. And he, you know, gave me a number of reasons why right now wasn’t the right time. And I said, Oh, that’s fine. But just this past winter, we got to the point of him saying, Okay, we’re ready. But it had been two years. So even though you have a plan, and even though you keep relating, again, you’re not in control of the end result. So that’s more of the gift came in in the end, but it takes patience as well.

Karen Kendrick 

I love that. “I’m a water guy.” Yes, I love that. I love going into all meetings with donors thinking from the perspective of, I’m doing a good job if I’m present to them. I’m listening, I’m learning, I’m creating a meaningful conversation. And if they say yes, no, or maybe to whatever I’m offering, or asking, that’s great information. And I can celebrate the success of learning more, versus I’m only doing a good job if I go in and they say yes to a gift, or yes to a meeting or yes to a visit or whatever it might be. So I love that. So to close this out, Luke, what advice would you like to give to a non-profit leader, you’ve given a lot of great ideas and input here, who are trying to make this change themselves? They’re wanting to move from that sort of fear-based, money-directed, to more relational, mission. What do you want to say to them?

Luke Wilson 

Yeah, thanks, Karen. And it’s been a privilege to share with with you and hopefully, your wider audience. So I think I’ll go back to where I started. I like to practice things in the summer. You know, it feels like people are a bit more relaxed, you know, there isn’t this pressure of the giving season. And so I would just say, practice through the summer and practice with people who don’t have high capacity. So that you, maybe you don’t feel as much pressure. But when you’re asked, how’s it going with your work? Or how’s it going with your organization? Or, you know, how you doing? That you you take that opportunity as an invitation and then really listen to see, does this person want to hear more? Or is it just sort of the usual niceties of, I just wanted to say hello? And so yeah, I would say just practicing. And then the second thing, I think, that came up in our conversation was, what do you celebrate? You know, do you just celebrate the big numbers? Or do you truly celebrate the person that you’re talking with, the stories that come out of that? The depth of relationship? And if they’re moving towards wanting to make an impact? And I think that will give you a sense of, are you following the money? Or are you truly trying to build partnerships that make a difference in the world?

Karen Kendrick 

Thank you so much. It’s a beautiful closing. Thank you, Luke, for joining me today for this episode. And we hope this has inspired you to shift your approach from being focused on the money to be focused more on the mission and the relationship and the partnership. If you have more questions about having more meaningful conversations with your donors, you can check out our free white paper called “How to Create Meaningful Connections with Your Donors.” And if you want to go deeper, you can sign up for our on-demand course on creating meaningful connections, which will give you a comprehensive training on how to measure meaningful connections, build relational communication plans, and really build those relationships. Both of these resources are linked in the show notes below. Thank you so much. Thank you so much, Luke.

Luke Wilson 

You’re welcome.

Recorded 

Thank you for joining us for the Nothing But Major Gifts podcast from Veritus Group. Richard and Jeff also write an ongoing blog that you can subscribe to for free at veritusgroup.net. Please join us again next time.