Michael D'Antonio: Building a Brand That Resonates

Jeff Schreifels (00:00)
Welcome, real fundraisers. Glad you're here with me. Today, I've got a great guest and it's going to be a great conversation. Michael D'Antonio is a seasoned marketing strategist with over 25 years of experience leading digital transformation at the intersection of marketing, technology, and business. As partner and founder of Bongo Consulting, Michael has a proven track record of building trusted client relationships.

leading multidisciplinary teams and delivering results-driven strategies for non-profits, startups, mid-market leaders, and Fortune 500 companies. Michael's background includes senior roles at top advertising agencies like McCann Erickson, Digitas Health, and Epum. Along with seven years as an adjunct professor of marketing at Temple University.

His client portfolio includes Microsoft, YouTube, Comcast, Merck, Major League Baseball, which I'm really interested about, and many more. He's passionate about innovation and results. Michael helps organizations stay ahead of the curve in today's dynamic digital landscape. So let's bring Michael on. Michael, thank you for joining us.

Michael D'Antonio (01:13)
Thanks, Jeff, and already excited because I got my new mug. So happy to be on. Looking forward to the discussion.

Jeff Schreifels (01:18)
Awesome. All right, let's have a little coffee talk done.

All right, so since this is real talk with real fundraisers, I'm gonna start out by saying, you marketers, you general marketers, because of my history of being a direct marketing fundraiser, we've always had a problem with you folks because we were always given, when we were talking to some of these big brands that I used to work with, like Feeding America, saying,

Hey, we got a million dollars. Should we spend it in marketing and, you know, our brand, or should we spend it on, you know, bringing in new donors? It was, to us, it was like a no brainer because this is like, are you going to spend a million dollars? Let's bring in 30,000 new donors. And in five years, those 30,000 new donors are going to bring in millions of dollars, or we just drop a million.

Michael D'Antonio (02:02)
Yeah.

Jeff Schreifels (02:16)
And who knows what's gonna happen if we market you. Now, so that's been my bias growing up in this fundraising business. But over time, now I've gotten older and I've seen, I think it can be a yes and, not an either or. And so I do appreciate the work. In fact, Feeding America is a great example because they used to be called America's Second Harvest. And that's how they knew them for years and years, America's Second Harvest.

Michael D'Antonio (02:18)
Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

Jeff Schreifels (02:44)
And then they decided, no, we're going to change our name to Feeding America. And they spent millions of dollars doing that whole process, marketing that brand, everything. And we thought at first, this is a waste of money.

15 years later, since they did that, now it's like, everyone knows Feeding America. It makes sense. It's like, this is what they do. You know what I mean? And that brand and the organization has just taken off from where they were just 25 years ago. I mean, it's amazing. So I see that power.

Michael D'Antonio (03:03)
Yeah.
Yes.
Well, that's a perfect
perfect example of an organization focusing on the impact and not the process. By changing their name, immediately helping their brand and helping people recognize what is their focus and what are they trying to impact and not what are they doing, right? So that's a really great example of brand marketing that immediately gets people thinking,

Jeff Schreifels (03:25)
Yeah.
Yes. Yes. Yeah. Yeah.

Michael D'Antonio (03:44)
What is the human element here? What is the element that your emotion, what do you think and feel when you hear Feeding America? It's pretty awesome company name. Right?

Jeff Schreifels (03:59)
I know. Yeah. But
when they were first starting to do that, I remember all of us back in the direct response shop, our agency was like, what a waste of money. I mean, they spent multiple millions of dollars on that rollout. And, now looking back at them, like, no, that was a great decision. And look where they are today. And you don't, mean, it just, it was a brilliant move well Yeah, exactly.

Michael D'Antonio (04:23)
Well, the name is the mission, right?
And when we think about like great brands and brand marketing, and I'll get back to your question, ⁓ you know, we look at some key areas, clarity, consistency, emotion, and, you know, coming back to feeding America, right? It's clear and concise. They're consistent around their messaging and their brand marketing.
and then the emotion of it. Like who's going to say no to feeding America, right? It's what we would want to happen in the world. And I think to your earlier thoughts and question, the answer is yes and yes, right? It's how can you utilize a budget to do direct response, to do brand marketing, to do sales optimization, to use a CRM like...

Jeff Schreifels (04:58)
Yes. Yes.

Michael D'Antonio (05:18)
How can you do those things all in conjunction working together? Because that's how you're gonna hit the masses and get your audience thinking and feeling the way that you want your internal staff thinking and feeling about your brand.

Jeff Schreifels (05:31)
Yeah.
Yeah. Yeah. All right. Let me start us off with a question. I want to know, How can non-profits build a brand that connects emotionally while still communicating their mission clearly and effectively? How does that work?

Michael D'Antonio (05:48)
Yeah,
think the first thing, and I think not only in the non-profit world, but in all industries, the things that I see that are lacking is that the internal staff doesn't understand the brand and the mission. And it's really difficult for a brand or an organization to market if everyone inside the organization is not singing the same tune.
Like if you took an organization or a non-profit and you asked 20 employees of the non-profit, I guarantee you, you're going to get 15 different answers on what their mission is, right? So then how can you then go to the market to create a brand if you're internal staff? So it has to start internally. It has to start with leadership, has to start with brand messaging, a brand hierarchy, but the internal staff

Jeff Schreifels (06:17)
Yeah.
Right, yeah.

Michael D'Antonio (06:42)
has to be able to be on the same page in order for that message to go out there. Because your brand is not just the marketing that you put out there. The brand is when your ⁓ sales associate is talking to a donor at a cocktail party. It's when the administrative assistant is telling her aunt about the organization where she works. If all those messages aren't the same, then it's off brand. So I think

Jeff Schreifels (07:08)
Yeah.

Michael D'Antonio (07:10)
So that is one of the key areas of like internally, does the organization understand their mission and what they're trying to achieve.

Jeff Schreifels (07:18)
So how do you do that practically? How do you go into a non-profit and get everyone basically on that same page?

Michael D'Antonio (07:23)
Yeah, I
mean, I think, like I said, it starts with leadership, right? It really does start with the leaders creating a hierarchy, a brand hierarchy of this is what we stand for. This is what our purpose and mission is. This is how we're going to go about it. This is who we impact. This is who we want to impact. You know, how do we bring our donors into our organization as part of our organization and not
an outside entity that they're just going to give money. So it's, it's layering all these ideas into a concise, you know, you know, I often wonder if most organizations have a document like this internally, do they have, do they even have it written down as a source of truth for the organization? Or is the leadership looking at that every six months and saying, are we really aligned with this?
You you Jeff at Veritus talk about the Veritus way and it's a way of doing things. It's ⁓ throughout the organization, you come back to it and you look at it, you try to make it better. And that's what organizations should be doing. The kind of a document that is their North Star and anywhere on that document that they're off, that's where you can course correct and say, you know what? Hey, hey, ⁓
marketing team, I'm seeing messaging that's off brand, that's not aligned with our mission. Let's talk about this. Hey, sales side, ⁓ you're working with donors. Are you saying these things when you're working with donors? So it's almost like a master strategic brand plan, but it's really about the organization and how the organization interacts with everyone involved when they're talking.

Jeff Schreifels (08:51)
with you.
So
how do you keep everyone on that page? Like practically what do non-profit leaders do to make sure that everyone's staying on brand in a sense?

Michael D'Antonio (09:22)
Yeah.
think asking the right questions and also having meetings, because it's one thing to dictate, it's another thing to engage and have conversations, right? Because everyone at an organization, at a non-profit, is in a different role dealing with different types of people, whether partners, donors, it could be third party vendors from a marketing perspective, it could be operations.
you know, having, you know, these town halls or quarterly meetings to get people on the same page, to understand the and listen to what they're going through and the questions that they're getting asked about the organization. Because, you know, I come back to what I said, it happens a lot in the not-for-profit world. You'll get 20 different answers from 20 different people on what their brand mission is. Because everyone's in a different role, they're talking with different people and

Jeff Schreifels (10:14)
Hmm.

Michael D'Antonio (10:18)
you know, look, coming back to feeding America, that's an easy one. You know, whether you're an admin or it's like my mission is to help feed America. And I do that by having an administrative role at the organization and I help support the leadership. But my kind of bigger goal of why I'm here and why I work here is because I'm helping to feed America, you know, and, and that is a most, that is a

Jeff Schreifels (10:22)
Mm-hmm.
Thank
Yeah.
Yeah.

Michael D'Antonio (10:44)
powerful statement at a networking event or a cocktail party. If someone asks you what you do, you don't say, I wouldn't say, you know, I'm a marketer. You know, I would say I'm helping to feed America. ⁓ how do you help feed America? I do marketing for feeding America and we do these things, right? So it's, it's where you start also in the conversation around brand and marketing. ⁓

Jeff Schreifels (10:48)
Yeah.
Yeah. Yeah.

Michael D'Antonio (11:10)
You know, and it gets back to that idea of focusing on the impact rather than the process, you know, because most people, Jeff, you know, in we get into storytelling and brand when we talk about storytelling and branding, you have to have the story. People want to hear a good story, right? When they're working or networking or at a cocktail party or you're meeting a new donor, you're meeting a new person in the work environment. It's like, what's your story? I.
You know, I don't want to hear that Jeff started college in 1989 and it's like, Oh my God, we're going to go through his whole life. I want to hear that Jeff helps non-profits throughout the world. Create better donor relationships. Wow. How do you do that, Jeff? And then you get into the conversation. So I think from a brand and marketing standpoint, a lot of organizations start at the process or talking about themselves.

Jeff Schreifels (11:50)
Yeah.
Yeah. Yeah.
Yes.
Yeah.

Michael D'Antonio (12:06)
about
what they do and not how it impacts all the people out in the world that might not know what they do or how they do it.

Jeff Schreifels (12:14)
Yeah, I remember one organization, Lurie Children's Hospital in Chicago. So you think, OK, Children's Hospital, everyone knows what they do. Everyone's on board. But they made it a point at quarterly. They would have these all staff meetings, mean, from the doctors to the receptionists, the fundraisers.
anyone involved in that hospital, there were these quarterly meetings and they had it in this big assembly hall. And they would invite donors who are mainly mostly parents of kids who had been served there at the children's hospital. And they would tell their story about a certain doctor that cared for them or a nurse or just how amazing it was to be there.

Michael D'Antonio (12:53)
Yeah.

Jeff Schreifels (13:06)
And you could see, here are these doctors, nurses, nursing assistants weeping, listening to their stories. But I just kept thinking, how brilliant was it for the leadership to invite those donors to talk about the mission that they're doing, but the impact of that and make them feel so good again, ⁓ yes, this is what we are about.

Michael D'Antonio (13:26)
Absolutely.
Yes, yes, yes.

Jeff Schreifels (13:34)
You know,
it was like, it was incredible. And I just kept thinking, there's gotta be a way for other non-profits to do something similar to that, to continue to remind those people who are doing the work every day of why they're doing it.

Michael D'Antonio (13:49)
Yes, well, and I think that's where authenticity comes into play, transparency. And we've talked about this offline about, you know, the basis of a good relationship with donors is can you talk to them when things aren't going so great, right? And most relationships, right? It's can you have those quote, hard conversations.

Jeff Schreifels (14:07)
Right.

Michael D'Antonio (14:13)
But that's the openness and transparency that people want to know about an organization that they're giving money to. And obviously large sums of money also, they want to know and feel the impact as you're saying of where is my money going and why should I continue to do this? I don't want to hear the boiler kind of template that your money is going to this. I want to know the stories. want to see the...
the real impact of if I'm impacting families or hospitals or animal shelters, how is it a concrete example of the money I gave helping?

Jeff Schreifels (14:56)
Yeah, yeah.
I'd to know, because you have a lot of experience, but what do you feel are some of the most common marketing mistakes that non-profits make and how they could avoid them, especially, you know, a lot of them have limited resources.

Michael D'Antonio (15:10)
Yeah, think, so I think limited resources, I'll talk about it in two areas. The limited resources, smaller non-profits, you know, I think with digital marketing today and all the different platforms, there's so much out there to do that ⁓ organizations try to do everything and they end up not making an impact by doing too much or trying to do too much. It takes up resources.

Jeff Schreifels (15:32)
Yeah.

Michael D'Antonio (15:37)
takes up time, and it feels good. You're doing a lot, right? You're doing a lot of marketing, but it's not making the impact because you're kind of scattered and you're too all over the place. So I think a lack of strategic focus is the first thing that I think is the big mistake, right? It's, hey, we need to go do things where you need to take a step back and say, what are we trying to achieve?

Jeff Schreifels (15:42)
Mm-hmm.
You
Okay, yeah.

Michael D'Antonio (16:04)
What is
our strategic focus, even as a small non-profit? what do we want to reach just 50 donors this year? Is that could be a strategic initiative. I want to talk to 50 new donors. So that that then leads into the tactics where I think a lot of organizations go right to the tactic, right? They say we need to do social media. And I hear this from my clients all the time. We need to do social media. And I'm like,

Jeff Schreifels (16:08)
Yeah.
Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

Michael D'Antonio (16:31)
Why do you need to do social media? Because we need to drive a million in sales. Well, those things aren't gonna add up, right? The other thing I see is coming back to the inconsistent brand message, right? So now you're doing things, but you're not putting out the right message to the right people. So now you're doing a lot, but you're putting out the wrong message to the wrong people. So now you're missing the mark there. And then I think,

Jeff Schreifels (16:36)
Yeah. Yes.

Michael D'Antonio (16:58)
The other thing is, we just talked about this, the lack of donors and internal staff understanding the big picture. So if you're not communicating to the right audience, you're on multiple platforms with the wrong message, and you're not communicating about the big picture, it's a miss, right? So even to my larger clients I work with.

Jeff Schreifels (17:16)
Hmm.

Michael D'Antonio (17:21)
Let's narrow our focus to a couple platforms or a couple tactics, whether it be social media, maybe some PR, and a really great CRM email strategy, and go after the strategic initiative of getting 50 new donors. Can we make that happen with those tactics? And so instead of going wide, it's almost like you're going more narrow.

Jeff Schreifels (17:38)
Yeah.

Michael D'Antonio (17:46)
but you're always having the eye on the strategic initiative because if you don't know what you're trying to gain from marketing, you're kind of doing dart board marketing. You're kind of shooting in the dark. you know, I, I, and I, think the pushback to that, that would be like, well, we can't even do those things. We're so, we're so limited. Well, well, then come back to that, a street strategic initiative, because Jeff, could.

Jeff Schreifels (17:46)
Yeah.
Right.

Michael D'Antonio (18:12)
The marketing could be direct phone calls, right? It could be going to multiple events a year where you know your donors are gonna be at and you're gonna go talk to them. When you think about marketing, the goal of marketing is to have a result. The goal of marketing is not just to do marketing. So I would urge smaller non-profits to think about their strategic goals first and then look at the

Jeff Schreifels (18:14)
Yeah, great.
Mm-hmm.

Michael D'Antonio (18:40)
grassroots efforts or the direct one-on-one conversations that you can have to try to get to your goal.

Jeff Schreifels (18:46)
Yeah, I see so many non-profit leaders, especially smaller ones, think they've got to do everything because they read about all this stuff. So if you read anything in the philanthropy press, there's all these things that people are doing and they are to do the social media thing here. I've got to do try this new strategy and this thing and, we should have a presence here. And they start doing things.

Or they started saying, we got to have a bunch of younger donors because we got to have younger donors because everyone else is doing it. And I think your analysis here of what non-profits need to focus on is absolutely spot on. Really figure out who you are, what you're trying to do, what your plan is, and stay with it.

Michael D'Antonio (19:22)
Yeah. Yeah.

Jeff Schreifels (19:39)
and being more succinct about it versus wide.

Michael D'Antonio (19:44)
Yes, and also
thinking, I hate saying thinking out of the box, but thinking about.

Jeff Schreifels (19:49)
Yeah.

Michael D'Antonio (19:50)
goal in mind. And I'll give you an example. I have a friend that has a non-profit and the organization loves having events. They love bringing community. They love bringing community together. They love having events. But the time and effort to put together the event, to bring all the partners together, to have the music bands set up and all this stuff. And at the end of the day, I asked

Jeff Schreifels (19:59)
Yeah. Yeah.
Yeah.

Michael D'Antonio (20:17)
the leader of the organization, said, well, how much did you raise at that event? And it was $20,000. And they put in six months of work to raise $20,000. And I urged them to say, was your goal to raise $20,000? And they said, no, our goal was to raise $50,000. And so the level of effort and the work did not equal the return on

what they're trying to achieve, where they could have been going to different types of donors to try to raise that $50,000 in different ways. ⁓ And I think there's always a, we have to have an event mindset, right? And when you look at the ROI and you come back to the strategic initiatives, maybe that's not the best tactic to do. It feels good, it's a fun time, it brings people together.

Jeff Schreifels (20:52)
Yeah. Yeah.
Yeah. Yeah.
Right. Yeah.

Michael D'Antonio (21:11)
but does it really help you get to your goal? Could it be a smaller event with a little more higher level donors? Could it be a dinner? It's how do you create that nuance when it comes, you have to always be thinking about your strategic goal when it comes to marketing.

Jeff Schreifels (21:20)
Yes. Yeah.
Absolutely. And don't get me started on events. Veritus has always been kind of negative towards events because as you said, it takes all this time and effort and the payoff is so little. Whereas if you actually had a major gift program where you're developing relationships with donors and you're getting to a point then when you're having one conversation and ⁓ they're just giving you a $50,000 check.

from that one conversation, you know what I mean?

Michael D'Antonio (21:59)
Yeah. And yeah. And that's
what I tried to give guidance to this organization to be like, you might have, you might work three hours to get someone to write you that $20,000 check that took six months to do the event and all the effort and time and energy to put into it to raise only 20, only 20,000. So

Jeff Schreifels (22:10)
Yeah. I know. Yeah.
Yeah. Yeah,
yeah. So with so much noise in the digital channels, what strategies have you seen work best for non-profits to break through and engage with their donors?

Michael D'Antonio (22:33)
Yeah, I mean,
I think ⁓ strategies that are personal, story-driven, and strategically, like I talked about, picking strategic channels. you know, the personalization and the stories for smaller non-profits or grassroots non-profits, you know, when it comes to budgets and things like that, we are in a world of video.
I mean, video is king, right? And you know, it's the authenticity that someone with a phone and just talking into a phone and putting a video out about, hey, you know, this week I had five donors do this and this is why. Like there are so many opportunities for storytelling. And I think sometimes organizations get caught up in the, ⁓ doesn't quote, quote, look good enough or it isn't good enough.

Jeff Schreifels (23:01)
Yeah. Yeah.

Michael D'Antonio (23:28)
I think a lot of people have gotten over that. It's about, the content resonating with me? Like, is this person talking, someone that I want to hear and learn about and hear this story? So I think the story-driven ⁓ actions are really what can help smaller non-profits. ⁓ It's rare that I see smaller non-profits being on LinkedIn just

Michael D'Antonio (23:57)
talking on videos, telling their story. just get, tell the world your story. Give me a 40 second story about why I should learn about your non-profit. Why is it impactful? Why is it different? What are you doing the last quarter? Like just grab your phone, create that story, put it out there.

Jeff Schreifels (24:17)
Is it
what's so why is this happening? Why aren't they using utilizing all of this is, you know, is it they don't think it's the right way to do it or they just don't know or

Michael D'Antonio (24:26)
I think it's a combination of people are hesitant
to talk about their successes, which I think is interesting because especially in the non-profit world, you're helping, right? And most people, ⁓ I think, want to help other people. And when they hear stories, also, how can you help if you don't know? If you don't know that there's a need, you know, I'm in the Philadelphia area. If I don't know

Jeff Schreifels (24:39)
Right.

Michael D'Antonio (24:55)
that an animal shelter is in need, you know, we're getting hit with so many messages. So if someone was on LinkedIn talking about an animal shelter that is in need, that's, I'm a new face to hearing that story. So I think the other thing ⁓ is a strong email, email communications to your donor base and your database. I think not only in the non-profit world, but it happens in the

for-profit world, your database is your lifeline. The people that you come across and connect with, you have to be building your database. And I know that smaller non-profits have a smaller database, but their job is to maximize that database, keep and build those relationships, but also always be looking to build that database more.

Jeff Schreifels (25:27)
Let see.

Michael D'Antonio (25:47)
moving from a thousand people in your database to three thousand in your database could be a strategic initiative. It could be, hey, by next year, we want to have two thousand more people in our database, which just over time grow that database. So you're you're always emailing and connecting with people about your mission and what you're trying to achieve. I always I also think the ask.

Jeff Schreifels (26:12)
Hmm.

Michael D'Antonio (26:13)
I mean, with these platforms now, social media, LinkedIn, Facebook, Instagram, you gotta make the ask. You gotta put it out there. You gotta let people know that you need help and that your cause is worthy for their money. And there's, you know, I mean, you see it. There's so much competition in non-profit world for the dollar, right? I used to have friends that would only give

Jeff Schreifels (26:29)
Mm-hmm.

Michael D'Antonio (26:41)
to ⁓ animal causes. I have other friends that only give to church causes, right? So it's making people aware that you're out there and that you have a need. I think the other thing is how can you pull your donors into the cause and create lack of separation that, know, they're just the...

Jeff Schreifels (26:43)
Yeah.
Mm-hmm.

Michael D'Antonio (27:05)
people that give money to my cause, how do you pull them in? You you mentioned the example of the video asset, like how can you get them into the cause of helping you grow the organization and grow the donor relationships by utilizing the donors, the people that are your best brand ambassadors and the ones that are giving the most money.

Jeff Schreifels (27:28)
That's right. Yeah, it's one thing to bring them in, but then how do you keep them? It's like, it's one, yeah, we wanna bring in 50 new donors. Great, great strategy, you do that. But the next level is, okay, now how do we engage them further to deepen that relationship with them? And many non-profits are not doing that. That's why you see high donor attrition, high donor value attrition going on, because we are not,

servicing or caring for, are donors. We don't look at donors as part of our mission as well. An organization, you talk about brand, what do you think about donors? How are donors part of your brand? Are donors just a means to an end or are they actually part of your mission to help make this work? And if it did, you'd have the mindset that

We have these donors, we have to care for them because they're finding joy through their giving to us. How are we bringing them in and sharing in that with them so that they understand what we're doing, how their gifts are making an impact, how their engagement is making our mission stronger. We don't do that.

Michael D'Antonio (28:38)
Yes. Yeah. And
also that is that is part of the brand. Like if you if you had a strategy where, you know, every quarter you called 25 donors out of the blue, whether you leave a message or you talk to them directly saying, I just want to let you know that your your financial investment led to this. What a great

Jeff Schreifels (28:51)
Right.
Yeah.

Michael D'Antonio (29:04)
what a great phone call to get and what a great phone call to give. ⁓ And, you know, I've donated, we've all donated to causes and it's, you really don't get the feedback a lot ⁓ because it kind of goes into this ether where you just donate your money. And I think it does come back to resources, obviously, but how can you...

Jeff Schreifels (29:06)
I know.
I
Yeah. Yeah.

Michael D'Antonio (29:28)
If you do that, that's how you build the donor story and the donor relationships more that my money is not just going into a black hole. It's actually impacting. And I'm, learning about my impact by getting a phone call or an email. And, know, I know Veritus talks about building donor relationships and that is your core mission to drive it. And there's so many strategies and tactics.

Jeff Schreifels (29:51)
you

Michael D'Antonio (29:54)
To me, that plays into the brand of the organization. It's not a separate marketing thing. It's actually part of your brand that I'm, you know, every quarter I'm going to call 25 donors. That's part of the marketing and branding of your organization. Because those people are the lifeline to continued success and also referrals, you know, talk about referrals.

Michael D'Antonio (30:19)
hey, I'm working with this great organization. I've donated money. I feel great about it. And this is the impact I've made. You should look into this organization also.

Jeff Schreifels (30:29)
This has been a great discussion and hopefully it's inspired some folks who are listening to think about what is their non-profit brand like and how do we market what we do, both through our donors internally to our internal publics. If they needed help, what do they do? What can they do for you?

Michael D'Antonio (30:49)
Yeah,
I'm happy to help. BongoConsulting.com is my website. And I also leave it at, think a lot of one misconception is that marketing costs a lot of money. But think about some of the tactics we've talked about today. At Bongo, we understand that everyone doesn't have giant budgets, but we can help with strategy. If you can help an organization with strategy,

Jeff Schreifels (31:07)
Yeah.

Michael D'Antonio (31:17)
they can usually figure out the executional elements, right? And also being real, like ⁓ telling a small non-profit to call 3000 donors in a quarter is just not realistic. But like, what can you handle? Can you handle calling a hundred in a quarter? And breaking it down. And I think you'll see success with breaking down the tactics and also not...

Jeff Schreifels (31:20)
Mm-hmm.

Michael D'Antonio (31:43)
blowing your budget from a marketing perspective. So we help a lot on the strategy side and we help a lot with getting organizations to save money by not doing certain things, right? It's like, hey, we're gonna do this campaign. It's like, wait a minute, what's the strategy? What's the ROI on it? Did you know it's gonna cost you this and this is what you're gonna get out of it? Let's take a pause on it and think about

Jeff Schreifels (31:46)
Exactly.
Yeah.
Yeah.

Michael D'Antonio (32:10)
What's your overall strategy for the quarter, for the year, and how can you utilize your internal team to go do that in a way?

Jeff Schreifels (32:19)
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Awesome. Good stuff. Well, thanks, Michael, for joining us. And for those who are listening or watching in, thank you for joining us on this edition of Real Talk for Real Fundraisers. And we'll see you next time.

Michael D'Antonio (32:32)
Thank you.