Are You Made for Management?

Jeff Schreifels 

In the non-profit sector, if you aren’t willing to advance into management, there’s very little opportunity to grow as a fundraiser, take on new responsibilities, and increase your salary. This is really frustrating, because management is not for everybody. You probably even know a few managers who weren’t fit for their jobs. Leadership requires a different skill set and specific perspective, one that’s interested in finding success and delivering results through others. Today, special guest Greg Gibbs stops by the podcast to discuss whether management is the right track for your career and provides some tips to help current managers get better at their jobs. Thanks for listening.

Recorded 

Welcome to the Nothing But Major Gifts podcast from Veritus Group featuring Richard Perry and Jeff Schreifels. Twice a month, we bring you the latest and best thinking about major gift fundraising so you can develop authentic relationships with your major donors. Here are your hosts, Richard and Jeff.

Jeff Schreifels 

Welcome to the podcast today. I’m Jeff Schreifels, and today I’ve invited a special guest to join me for an important topic about management. The non-profit sector, like many others, has a very limited opportunities to grow, take on new responsibilities, and earn more money if you aren’t willing to go into management. And this is really unfortunate, because not everyone is right for it. Being a manager takes a particular mindset and desire to see results through others. It’s not for everyone. So today, I’ve invited Greg Gibbs to join me for a conversation to help you understand if management is right for you and what will help you be a great manager. But before we dive in, Greg, why don’t you take just a moment to introduce yourself.

Greg Gibbs 

Thanks, Jeff. Good to be here. I’m glad to be back working with Veritus. I really enjoy your organization. So I am Greg Gibbs. I am the Executive Director of Development Services for the University of California Agriculture and Natural Resources, and I’m based in California, obviously.

Jeff Schreifels 

Awesome. And you lead a team of how many over there?

Greg Gibbs 

I have 12 folks. And we actually started our fundraising about seven and a half years ago, which is the main reason I was hired. So we’re fairly new to the fundraising game.

Jeff Schreifels 

Awesome. Okay, 12 people, that’s a lot. So you have a lot of knowledge here. So Greg, I’d love to have you start by sharing your own journey into management and your management philosophy.

Greg Gibbs 

Okay, well, I’ve been managing for quite some time. Right out of college, I was a Second Lieutenant in the Air Force, and you’re immediately put into management roles and so I supervised a very small team, had some enlisted folks that worked for me. And it’s something that you, it’s not inherent. A lot of people think that some folks are just made, and yeah, there are some people probably just made to be managers. I really screwed up when I was younger. You know, and the military is a little different, because you wear your rank on your shoulders so everyone can see. But you know, if I could go back and tell my younger self, I would have said, “You need to just chill and do a better job.”

Greg Gibbs 

So after my stint in the military, I left as a Captain, then got into the private sector. Iimmediately took on management jobs, and found myself in a company where they really liked what I did. I was really great at sales. And so they said, “You know what, we need you to go out and hire more people like yourself.” And I’m like, “Okay, great.” “And you’re going to supervise those people.” “Okay, great.” And they were all in five different states, and so I had to hire them, hire their assistants, etc, and then I just spent the next three years flying all over the place. Learned a lot. Hiring remotely was a challenge. This is before the pandemic, yeah, but I started to learn about people. And I remember one guy I hired who had told me a story about… I told him that I love to cook. That was my passion. And then he told me he bought one of those machines where you could stick the wires in a piece of beef, and you set it and forget it, and it would rotate. And I laughed so hard. He and I are friends to this day, and it’s primarily for the fact that he was able to share a story. I was able to get to know him.

Greg Gibbs 

Fast forward to my time at the University. I worked at the University of California, started in 2006, on one of our campuses. Did fundraising there. And then moved over to Ag and Natural Resources, which is where I’m at now. And it’s just… it’s a learning experience. And every single day, I learn something new about myself. I learn something new about my team. And so it’s just something that you have to not only want to do, but have a passion and desire to do. And that passion and desire is really about helping others. That’s the key.

Greg Gibbs 

So my style. Wow. You probably should ask my team. I think overall, it’s pretty good. It’s not a popularity contest. It’s not trying to see who’s going to be… who likes you the most, or who fears you the most, or whatever. My style is, I try to treat everyone fairly. You can’t treat everyone the same because they’re not the same. Each person has their own money triggers. Each person has their own personal history, their own family history, and it’s just willingness to try to adapt and help them understand that we’re all trying to achieve the same thing as a unit. Because we have to raise a lot of money. But also do it so that it’s done ethically; to do it with happiness, hopefully, and that, you know, we’re paid as employees, and we get paid really well, but there’s a reason, because fundraising is a difficult, difficult job and with a lot of responsibility. And so you just have to learn to accept other people’s differences and figure out what’s going to work. And it doesn’t always work. But you have to kind of figure it out and get a rhythm. And it’s a give and take.

Jeff Schreifels 

Yeah, yeah. How do you… so within your team, how do you help good fundraisers continue to get paid more as they get better? And you know, there’s some folks usually in a situation where… most situations I’ve seen in non-profits, the only way that you get paid more, really, is to get into management. And you know, as you were, some of your best fundraisers shouldn’t be managers, right? They’re so good at building those relationships, and that’s where they get their energy and joy from, yet we create a situation, financially, for them that the only way to do that is through management. So, what are you doing to be able to identify those that are doing well, but may not be managers, but could also earn more, right?

Greg Gibbs 

You know, before I answer that question directly, the one thing I truly believe about managers is you have to like people in general. Okay? If you’re in it for yourself and you truly don’t enjoy being around people. And I’m not talking donors, I’m just talking people in general. The people you might be supervising, or your colleagues or your peers. If you’re truly in this because you want to promote yourself or to rise up, but you don’t enjoy watching other people rise up, you should not be managing period. Full stop.

Greg Gibbs 

And there are those fundraisers who have implicit joy working with donors. They love it. I see them when they come back from a donor meeting and they’re all, “Oh, my god, that was the best. She was so nice. We really hit it off,” etc, etc, etc, and, oh, and they’re just going on and on and on. They’re, you know, they’re really excited. And then, but when they’re telling the story, it’s still about their feelings when they were interacting with the donor. I’m like, “Well, what about the donor’s feelings?” Same holds true with management. It’s not about “Wow, team, we once again hit the ball out of the park and exceeded our goals,” etc, and “Look at how much money we raised,” and blah, blah, blah.

Greg Gibbs 

It should be, “How can I help you be successful?” And if you’re not cut out to manage because you’re really kind of in it for yourself, then how can I take that energy of someone who really connects with donors, really knows what they’re doing, but there’s only one Executive Director? I’ve got three direct reports that are managers. There’s only so many leadership positions. So what do I do if I’ve got someone who’s a phenomenal fundraiser: how can I assign them to bigger donors? As the executive director, I don’t need to have the portfolio of the biggest donors. I’m pushing papers. You know? I’m an administrator now; I’m part of executive leadership. Let my top fundraisers work with our top donors, because that’s what they’re good at.

Greg Gibbs 

And so by giving them more responsibility. That, in and of itself, is a perk. But in the University of California, we’re very fortunate. All of us are in salary scales. So you can see different steps and different levels. So you can promote someone up. We call it reclassification. We can promote someone up as they continue to rise without having to get into the managers’ series, and whether it’s a frontline fundraiser or whether it’s someone from my Advancement Team, how can I move my gift processing manager to a gift processing director? By reclassification: changing the job description and giving them more responsibility and a lot more economy.

Jeff Schreifels 

Exactly, good stuff. I love that, because that really does allow for growth in many different ways, either through management or through the work that you’re doing with those donors. And I’m sure your frontline fundraisers are appreciative of that as well. Now I’d love to know what you think are some of the greatest challenges with management that you see in the non-profit sector.

Greg Gibbs 

I’d say the biggest challenge in my world, which is higher education fundraiser, I’ve been doing this for almost 20 years now, turnover is the is the biggest challenge for them. Very competitive. Lots of universities out there always looking for a new director of development, or whatever the title may be. And it’s because the employees are burned out. They are kind of on this wheel of, “Gotta raise $1 more than we did last year. Gotta raise $1 more than we did last year. “And the organization isn’t thinking about, what can we do with the money that we’re receiving. It’s just raise money. And so you put employees into that spinning wheel. You know, you’ve seen the little gerbils run around, and it puts so much pressure.

Greg Gibbs 

These jobs are extremely difficult to do. You’ve got your portfolios. You’re doing most of the writing, you’re doing most of the stewardship, all on your own. You’re doing your research. If you’re running around, going to meetings, etc, not only the other tasks that you’re assigned, but at the same time, they are given these metrics that are just unattainable. And it’s just because the board said, “Well, we need to raise x.” But if you were to ask them, “Well, what’s it for?” It’s like, “We just need to raise X. We need to raise x plus one.”

Jeff Schreifels 

Exactly.

Greg Gibbs 

And so you’re putting people in a position where they feel like they’re not making progress, and as a result, they start looking, because I probably get five or six invitations a month to apply for different jobs. I’m not interested. I’m very happy with what I’m doing. So it’s delete. Delete. Thanks anyway! For others who feel like their back is against the wall because you can’t talk to that donor unless they can make X amount of dollars in a gift, or you need to make X number of asks per month, and if you don’t, you’re failing in your job. No one wants to hear that. And then at the end of the fiscal year, doesn’t matter how great you did, you start at zero, and it’s usually going to be added on, “Well, you raised x. Now it’s x plus 10. Go back out there with the same donors and do the same thing.” And that’s probably the biggest challenge, it’s the turnover.

Jeff Schreifels 

Yeah, I mean, gosh, we’ve been writing about this, it seems like forever. And it feels like it hasn’t gotten better. But, I mean, you’ve been able to figure this out, right, with your team. So you were telling me when we were preparing for this podcast, you know, your team has been with you a long time, right?

Greg Gibbs 

Yes.

Jeff Schreifels 

Let’s talk about that a little bit.

Greg Gibbs 

Very little turnover. And it’s because I don’t have all of them chasing some arbitrary metric based off of the level of their position. Yes, you have more responsibility, but if your portfolio remains the same, how do you keep squeezing those donors, right? Because it’s not realistic. Donors don’t want to be treated like banks. They want to have impact. So, it’s also working. You know, I have my fundraiser spend as much time with our programmatic team internally, as they do with donors. They need to see what our programs are doing, what’s the research that we’re focused on, so that when they go out and talk to donors, they have a story to share with them, and that hopefully will in turn, you’ll see a donor, the wheels will start to turn.

Greg Gibbs 

I was at an event last week. One of our top donors was with us. Our director of our 4H Program was up talking. She gave an amazing conversation. I had no idea 4H was even doing that kind of stuff. And I was kind of watching my donor, you know, and his face lit up. Wow. Well, this was unexpected, because he had never shown any interest in 4H at all.

Jeff Schreifels 

Interesting.

Greg Gibbs 

And at the end of that event, he was grabbing envelopes. His wife was pulling me aside, “You need to reach out to him. You know, you hit all…” And that was not planned. It just happened. But I knew that having him come to this, he’s going to see a different aspect of what we do instead of what we… A lot of people would have just kind of pigeon holed him, like “He’s only interested in this. So let’s only show him this.”

Jeff Schreifels 

Yeah.

Greg Gibbs 

It’s about what the donor wants to do. And so I, as the fundraiser, now I’m putting my fundraiser hat back on… That’s exactly what I want to see. Is that passion, and I want my fundraisers to see that passion with their donors, rather than saying, “Well, it’s almost November 1. Time for you to get ready for a Giving Tuesday gift.” Um, no. If you have your folks working with donors, and you’re truly trying to build relationships with donors, those relationships can last years. And our retention of donors, thanks to Veritus, our retention with donors is amazing. We’re not just chasing after new people. Our biggest donors are already in our database. It’s us trying to find out what they’re passionate about.

Jeff Schreifels 

That’s fantastic. I hope those managers that are listening really hear from Greg here. I mean, this is an incredible story, and your gift officers have been with you for years now. And I mean, that’s where it really takes. Now, I’m really interested Greg, in how do you help nurture someone on your team who does want to be a manager? And then what are you looking for to really know if someone’s a good fit for a management role? What do you do?

Greg Gibbs 

The best way is to mentor them. When someone shows potential, or if you think someone has potential, is you mentor them and you see how they react. You include them in you know, top level meetings internally with their colleagues, so that they can see who I engage with on a daily or weekly or monthly basis, bring them to the table and see how they respond to it. Some of them will go, “Whoa, I am not interested in that.” Or when I get my annual time from the budget call in two months, you need to fill in this entire Excel spreadsheet, tell me how you’re going to be spending the money. And they see me sitting there, and I’m calculating, and I’m trying to figure everything out, and they’re like, “Nope, I don’t want any part of that.” And so once they see what it’s really like, you know, because I am not, I don’t do that much fundraising any longer, right? I have a team. That’s what they’re hired to do, right? I have my own job that I’m focusing on.

Greg Gibbs 

But let them see what it’s really like, because those who are clamoring for the top job probably should not be the ones in that job. They’re looking out again for their own selfish interests, because they think that all I do is go around with my chancellor, and we go to events, and we go to parties, and we hobknob out with wealthy people, and that is not the job at all. And so by allowing them to see how I do it, see how others, my colleagues, my peers, are managing their teams, then they start to pick up on things that they like and, more importantly, things that they don’t like.

Greg Gibbs 

I think that some of the best mentors I’ve had, I learned so much from, but I also learned about things I didn’t like, and I vowed not to do that, or to at least alter their approach of how they did it, and tailor it to my true self. Be honest with yourself. You have to be able to look at yourself in the mirror or on a zoom. Doesn’t matter. You have to be able to look at yourself and truly think, am I trying? Am I doing the best for my team? Am I doing the best for my employees? Not all of them want to manage; 80% of the folks out there, are happy with the jobs that they have, have zero interest in supervising or managing. But the others might, and so sometimes you might think you found the right person, and then you realize that’s not going to work. I don’t think you’re in this for the right reasons. So you start, “Okay, what’s next?”

Greg Gibbs 

So I always have a succession plan in my head. Okay? Because I can get run over by a bus any day. YAnd all of us, every single one of us, are replaceable. And I want the team to continue to function, whether I’m here or not. And so that’s my goal. And so let them have a seat at the table, bring them in, have them work on a project where they’re reporting directly back to me or to their supervisor. Have them do something special or different, because that’ll get them excited, and then they can make the decision, “Is that the path I want to go or or maybe it’s a different path.” Yeah.

Jeff Schreifels 

So what are some of the ways that you’re bringing people up, you know, like, as you’re starting to develop them? What are some of the things that you’re looking for, you’re listening for? What do you want to make sure that they’re learning from you as they’re progressing in learning about being a manager?

Greg Gibbs 

I look for their emotional intelligence. How, not only can they identify where they are on that emotional scale, but can they read other people? Can they see what motivates or demotivates people? How do other people respond in those situations? You know, I look at the ability, do they have the ability to delegate as the manager? You can’t do everything. It’s impossible. You will fail. If you think that you’re the smartest person in the room who can do everything, I guarantee you will fail, or you’re going to be one miserable person. You have to be able to delegate.

Greg Gibbs 

And during that delegation process, you’re going to see who can rise up to the occasion and who probably could use some help. And it’s being… The ability to take you know… One of my best employees who has been working with me for 12 years now, we were at UC Davis together. I brought him over to Ag and Natural Resources seven and a half years ago. He’s my right hand. Even when we see there’s something that’s not probably the best way to do it. I just say, “Hey, let’s go to lunch.” You know, I’m going to take off my supervisor hat, but I’m going to say, “Alright, bud, you gotta stop this, and you need to pivot and do it this way.” And because there’s mutual respect, and again, you can’t fake it, because there’s mutual respect, he takes that in, processes it, and like, l’All right, I can probably do it differently.”

Greg Gibbs 

And so that’s how you spot those who’ve got that talent and that you should be managing. He will keep, if he were here right now, he’d be, “I won’t deal with that,” but he has what it takes to do it. And there’s others on my team that have it as well, but perhaps at different levels, okay, or they may one day want to go to another shop. I’m not going anywhere anytime soon, but they may want to go to another organization and do it. And I encourage people, if you see an opportunity that you think is right for you, come talk to me. I’ll help you get what you want.

Jeff Schreifels 

Wow. I mean, how many people listening want Greg as their manager?

Greg Gibbs 

I don’t know if it’s a full house out there raising their hand.

Jeff Schreifels 

Well, I mean, I think that… I don’t know. I’ve just listened to so many fundraisers lament about their job and people, the number one reason people leave their jobs, is because they didn’t like their… there’s something wrong with their manager. There’s a problem in that area. And so it’s so refreshing, Greg, to hear someone talk about how they have a place for fundraisers and will help them achieve more revenue for themselves without making them a manager.

Jeff Schreifels 

And it’s amazing how you are always looking for people who are managers, and how you want to mentor them, and the steps that you’re taking on going to find out, do they want to be a manager or not? And then really developing them so that eventually, one day, they’ll take over your job. And I think that is amazing. And I think that’s what all managers need to be thinking about or acting. And it’s really refreshing to hear someone kind of outline that process. So.

Greg Gibbs 

Yeah and it’s, again, it’s one of those things you and I say, you have to have a thick skin. But you can’t be… You gotta be able to take criticism. Not everyone’s going to be happy with you every single day. I know I don’t have that with my team all the time. I make certain that you know when it’s time for me to get out of there, or if they need a break. Or let’s say we’ve had a tense meeting about one thing or another, I make certain to give them breathing space. I don’t need to walk the floor to check to see how everyone’s doing, and what time are they coming in, and when do they go home? I don’t care. Your job is to get your job done. How do you do it? That’s up to you. But it really is. Allow them time to talk amongst each other.

Jeff Schreifels 

Yeah.

Greg Gibbs 

Give them breathing space. Don’t hover and breathe over their neck constantly. “Tell me about every little minute detail that you’re doing.” You know, I’ve got… my personality is I like to know what’s happening, but it doesn’t mean I have to get in the weeds on everything. So you know, my team was joking the other day about our database. Oh, “There’s problems with our database.” And I’m just like, do I need to do anything? And I prefer not to know. And they kind of laugh because I just trust them. You’ll figure it out. You’ll bring me in when I need to be brought in, if I need to be brought in. And some managers have a difficult time with it. Some will just put their head in the sand and act like it’s not there. You need to be aware. So it’s… you have to be able to be transparent with your team. You have to be able to handle uncertainty and unpredictability. As you know, I told you right before this podcast started, my laptop died. I’m upstairs. I’m like, running through the buidling trying to figure it out. And here we are. And so it’s just, there’s a lot to it. And if you’re doing it because you think that’s the way to get the biggest paycheck, and that’s the way to get the most visibility, if it’s all about me or themselves, that’s not the job for you. You’re going to be miserable. You’re going to be miserable managing.

Jeff Schreifels 

Yep. Well, Greg, thank you so much for joining me today. And I hope each of you listening found really valuable tips to help you identify if management is right for you and what you need to do to be successful in that role. And if you’d like to learn more about how to be a manager, especially if you oversee major gift programs, I’d like to invite you to join our Certification Course for Managers and Executives. We have cohorts starting quarterly, and you can find upcoming dates at the link in the show notes or on our website under Training. Thank you for joining us, and we’ll see you next time.

Recorded 

Thank you for joining us for the Nothing But Major Gifts. podcast from Veritus Group. Richard and Jeff also write an ongoing blog that you can subscribe to for free at veritusgroup.net. Please join us again next time.