Building Authentic Relationships

Recorded   

Welcome to the Nothing But Major Gifts podcast from Veritus Group featuring Richard Perry and Jeff Schreifels. Twice a month, we bring you the latest and best thinking about major gift fundraising so you can develop authentic relationships with your major donors. Here are your hosts, Richard and Jeff. 

Karen Kendrick   

Hello everyone, and welcome to the podcast, "Building Authentic Donor Relationships." Today we will explore the power of building meaningful, genuine relationships in every aspect of fundraising life. I'm your host, Karen Kendrick, Senior Director of Client Engagement at Veritus Group, and today we're discussing one of my favorite topics. In this episode, I'm joined by someone who truly understands the value of connection. Nick Khoury is a brilliant strategist and communicator who has spent his career helping people and organizations thrive through the power of authentic relationships. Nick is currently the Director of Development for Scholarship and Student Aid at the University of North Carolina at Chapel Hill. So welcome Nick and tell us a little bit about yourself. 

Nick Khoury   

Thank you, Karen. And thank you for having me. I'm really glad to be here today. Again, my name is Nick Khoury, and I'm currently at UNC Chapel Hill. Before UNC Chapel Hill, I worked at the College of William and Mary, where I lived in Williamsburg for about three years. And before then, I worked at my undergrad alma mater, Chowan University, both in admissions and in development. I myself consider, I look at myself as a product or philanthropy. I received a scholarship to go to Chowan as an international student, and I'm forever thankful for it, as it helped me explore originally the work I do right now, the work of philanthropy and relationship building. So thank you for hosting me, and I'm looking forward to this. 

Karen Kendrick   

Yeah, I'm looking forward to the conversation. So you know when Nick and I met a while back about another subject, we got in these conversations around that challenge between building an authentic relationship with a donor, a relationship that's long-term, that's professional, that's authentic, warm, and connecting. Because I think all of us know pretty much how to sit down with someone the first few times and ask good questions and get to know somebody. But then, what do you do, right? And how do you maneuver that; you're really creating a long-term relationship, and I don't know how much our society teaches us how to do that. So open that up a little bit, Nick on some of your initial thoughts on, you know, what does that mean? What does that mean to be professional but authentic? And how you've done that with some of your folks. 

Nick Khoury   

Yeah, Karen, I think there's a good balance there and a fine line that we always have to walk. But when you bring authenticity to any conversation, especially the first time you meet with somebody, it becomes really crucial to building that path for that long relationship we all are trying to build with our donors specifically. But how do you bring authenticity during your first interactions and beyond with somebody that you don't know very well? And I think about that often, and what comes to mind first is building respect and building trust. And that comes with being able to be a good listener. Listen to what a donor has to say. Their values. You mentioned asking questions, and we all know the questions we have to ask but they have to come with curiosity. Genuine curiosity. Our donors sense that. And when you're curious and genuine, that tends to go well in the work we do.  

Nick Khoury   

So it's important to be able to be true to yourself, to the values of your organization; be transparent, honest, and set the expectations from the first time we meet our donors. I think that's something we tend to forget about sometimes. I have. In a lot of our meetings where we are just excited to meet with someone, we want to get to know them. They want to get to know us. But we leave that first or second meeting without some sort of next steps, or without any clarity of why we were there from the from the start. So being able to say that and convey that to the donor is really important. We are here to build that long relationship. We are here together to create this path of engagement where the donor is really happy and feeling engaged and connected to the institution you're representing. 

Karen Kendrick   

Yeah, I know so many times I've had donor meetings that I'm thinking, you know, Karen, you're not clear on the agenda here. And the donor can feel it, and I can feel that the donor feels it, and they're like, "Well, this is nice, but why am I here?" Right? And it can feel like a waste of time for folks, even though you're engaging. They're like, "Alright, great, but what was the purpose of that?"  

Karen Kendrick   

So what are some things you want, you think are important to say in those initial meetings about the purpose, about your role? Like, what's your language? And then I'll share mine. 

Nick Khoury   

That's a good question. So mine starts really with that first outreach before we even get to sit together. Whether that is through an email or through a phone call, it's really important to share why we're trying to initiate this meeting. And this is, for example, with the work I do on behalf of scholarships and student aid at Carolina, the reason is, obviously, to discuss their experience at Carolina if they graduated from UNC, but also to share ways of how others, whether in their community or across the states, partner with us to ensure that students who are talented can access Carolina and can afford Carolina. And I'd like to share these things with them and discuss ways where we can further engage them as a volunteer or as a donor.  

Nick Khoury   

And I think that that's the key part of that outreach is showing that we want to engage you as an individual who's part of the Carolina Community or any institution. And that really sits well, because when we meet, when I meet with a donor, for example, in person, they tend to remind me about that part of the outreach. So in the middle of the conversation, or towards the end, if I forget about talking about it, they bring it back and say, "Well, Nick, you know, I've been thinking about your email, and I'd love to discuss with you ways where I could engage further with the University."  

Nick Khoury   

And it's really important, if it makes sense, to leave that meeting knowing that this is one of many conversations that we will be having. That we hope that this is the beginning of a long-term relationship with the institution. And I look at it as when you go on a first date, Karen, when you meet somebody, let's say, online, and you're interested in a long-term relationship, it's important that you get that from that person you're going on a date with on the first meeting. You want to know if this is a one-time thing, or are they interested in a long-term relationship. You don't want to leave not knowing what's happening. So this is a key element I believe, in creating and starting that relationship with an individual. 

Karen Kendrick   

I love that. I love that. Yeah, all of us want to know where we stand, right? So what's the purpose? Where do we stand? What's this about? What's this person want from me? What are they trying to do here? And you know, obviously for donors, they've had many, if they're anybody with significant donations, they've had many of these meetings. And I think for many of them, I've had some funders say, some donors say, "Yep, they sent the next young one out. I got to meet another one." You know, it gets to be mundane for them. So I think it's so valuable and important to be clear. I like how you said it's long-term. I might add some pieces around, you know, what my role is in this. I mean, you gotta know, you probably do this too, my role is to be that bridge between you and opportunities to support or be engaged. And so I'm here to find out your interests, find out your passions, find out more about how you want to engage, what that might look like and make this more meaningful for you. So some of that really helps with, and I love you saying, and this is long-term, and we're here on the journey with you. All that language is really helpful.  

Karen Kendrick   

I think another piece, Nick, and you're great at talking about this, is setting some established communication at the beginning around what the relationship's going to look like, right? So for many donors, they have some of these meetings with folks. But you know what? What do I expect? What am I to expect from you from now on? You know, are we going to have these long meetings where you just ask me questions and it never goes anywhere? Like, you know, where is this going and what's going to happen over time? So what do you say about expectations or learning about the person's needs in those meetings? Like, talk a little bit more about that. 

Nick Khoury   

And that's a good question. And I think it comes with a lot of listening and reading the room and understanding well, (1), what sort of life the donor lives in? Are they the sort of people who would take a one hour meeting, or are they the kind of people, okay, meet for 30 minutes? 15 minutes? We're going to tackle the agenda and create our next steps. So and you have to pivot and be able to adjust to the need of the individuals you're meeting with and creating relationships with. And that comes over time, Karen, but that first meeting is essential to be able to kind of talk about that, if appropriate, honestly, being very candid. You know, we, for example, we have a 30 minute conversation, Karen, does that still work for you? And then they may say, "Yes." They may say, "Actually, no, I need to leave earlier." That tells you a lot about the kind of lifestyle or the work style that they're in and creating next steps.  

Nick Khoury   

So once you finish that first initial conversation, all right, well, here's what we're going to do next. I'd love to engage you in this particular aspect of of the institution based on our conversation, how does that sound for you? What would be the best way to reach back out to you? Does email work? Phone call works? When would be the right time for us to follow back up with you? Things like that that you want to be able to capture throughout the initial conversations that indirectly tell you a lot about the best way to communicate with that individual. Does that answer the question? 

Karen Kendrick   

Yeah. And I think, come really prepared with, what is the most important thing for you to get? Because what if they're really chatty? We do a Permission-Based Asking, which is to say up front, you know, "I'm your partner, so I want you to push back. I want you to ask questions. I want you to be like curious and all the things, and I'll facilitate the meeting." Like you said, "Does 30 minutes still work for you? Is it ok if I keep things moving?" But if they're really chatty, maybe what you thought you were gonna... so be really clear about your priorities, about what next steps or what questions you want to get done.  

Karen Kendrick   

And then, you know, I think speaking to, you mentioned some of the differences in culture and how people like to communicate and be in communication. I think having some understandings about some of the differences in how people communicate, let's say culturally, maybe from where they grew up, maybe from where they're living. You know, you could have grown up one place, and it's one way, culturally in communication, living in another place, and maybe you are different than everybody you grew up in. Like everybody's an individual. So we don't want to say any sort of norms, but there are some different categories that help us understand. So you've talked about some of those. So mention, what are some of those things we sort of need to be thinking about, is this person maybe this way or that way, so that we can think about how to best communicate with them. 

Nick Khoury   

Right. And I want to go back to one point you mentioned earlier, if, let's say a person is being chatty, and that could be the donor, and that could be us, as gift officers. So it's important that we find that balance, and as a gift officer, realize that and bring it back to what we're here for. Because you're here to advance, and this may sound bad, but you're here to advance an agenda. To advance a relationship. And that's the reality of the work we do, in a genuine way. But advancing that agenda is going to be a win-win situation to you as the institution and to the donor. So we always have to remember that. But you know. 

Karen Kendrick   

I gotta stop you there. That's so good, because I think we think building a relationship means you don't have an agenda. Like, I think we think they're two separate things. But all relationships, we have an agenda, right, at some level. So I think owning that, and owning your reason, your reasoning, owning your agenda, and then making sure that you're not in a mode of you're talking too much, selling too much, pushing too much. You're really coming from that curiosity, that drawing in, that learning space. So I love that.  

Karen Kendrick   

All right, what were you gonna say next if I didn't make you lose your train of thought? 

Nick Khoury   

No, you're fine. I think about that often. For me, for somebody who grew up in the Middle East, and as you could relate to that, we tend to chat a lot. We want to spend a lot of time with the person, and we're known for hosting and talking and getting to know people. And I tend to kind of indirectly, have that in my interactions with a lot of donors, and I have to remind myself that I have to find a good balance. Because I'm here working. I'm here representing an institution. I have goals to meet. The institution has goals to meet. The donor has philanthropic goals to meet. And I need to to remind myself that Nick, all right, bring it back. 

Karen Kendrick   

Reel it in Nick! 

Nick Khoury   

Stop chatting too much. And I have a donor who I have known now for three years, since I came to Carolina, and he used to give on an annual level, and never really had the chance to sit in front of a gift officer to talk about his philanthropic vision with the institution. And I'm really proud that I got the opportunity to do so with him from scratch, and moving his gift from $100 gift a year to now having an ask for $3 million. And he's somebody now who's 37 years old, when we first met he was 34, but we got to a place where he would remind me, he would tell me, "Nick, I think you're letting your background now show in the conversation. Let's bring it back to the core." But I love that, and he loves it, because, you know, we build trust and respect and understanding where we come from, and we're comfortable holding each other accountable in the work we do. But I think this is just a great reminder of how we give each other a place, safe place, healthy place, as a donor and as a gift officer throughout our interactions. 

Karen Kendrick   

It's a great example of... you know we have differences in time orientation, for some folks, it's just about the relationship and being there in the moment. For other folks, it's about keeping the schedule. For some cultures, it's like very direct communication. Let's say hello, maybe two seconds of touch base about life, and then let's get to business. For other people, that would feel rude. And so tuning in and understanding how you prefer things, and then tuning in to what the donors might be communicating is key. And like some people are more, the more indirect is going to have more body cues. They may not say no. They may say, I'll think about it, because no is rude. So, you know, learning that there are some differences. It's not good or bad; it's just differences. And tuning in to what they might be. And you could, like, if you have a donor that, like, wants to get to the point all the time, and you're chatty, you could, I would say, this is how I'd build trust, I'd  be like, "You know what, I love to learn and chat and connect and I, and it looks, you know, I can tell that you're a person that loves to get down to business. I love that. So if I'm ever too chatty, you tell me." So just like, make it a part of the relationship and give them permission as well. That's really cool. 

Nick Khoury   

I agree. And they'll appreciate that a lot. And it's important, as we're in the relationship building industry, it's important that we realize that. And it's important for us to take a pause and ask, "Did I forget something? Did I miss something? Are we on your timeframe? Are we not? Do we need to take a step backward?" So it's always important to pause and reflect and realize that we may have missed something as gift officers in our communication and engagement path. So it all goes back to that authentic relationship you're building, and letting the donor be exposed to that is okay, I think.  

Nick Khoury   

I've had so many situations where, you know, I've had donors who stopped responding. I hear also from a lot of colleagues who have worked with a donor for some time, and then they stopped responding, and they wonder what happened. So it's always good to go back to them and say, "Have I missed something? Let's start from the beginning. Did we did we skip a step that we have talked about? Did I forget about something you've mentioned to me?" So that shows that authenticity, and the donors, in so many ways, respect that. And that gives the opportunity to restart that conversation or resume the conversation at a certain step or level that the donor agrees with. 

Karen Kendrick   

I love that. That's beautiful language. Is there something, some step I missed, something I missed? I mean, it's so easy to fear going back in those situations, because there's concern that maybe I got them upset, or I didn't do something right or, and that's a part of that trust building.  

Karen Kendrick   

And I want to hear more about the $100 to $3 million donor; like that trust building over time is that kind of thing. It's not that you show up and say all the right things and you just do everything perfectly, and every meeting flows perfectly. It's what? What is that Nick that helps that long-term trust and authenticity be built? 

Nick Khoury   

That's a good question. I think one, we've talked about this already, is setting up the expectations from the beginning: knowing that we are here to advance your goals as a donor and philanthropist and share these common goals and share these values on behalf of the institution from the beginning. And know that we are working together on establishing this path.  

Nick Khoury   

I want to go back to this $3 million donor. I remember from the beginning, we sat and had coffee, and I said, "I am here," to when he shared his vision with me, I said, "I am here to help you accomplish this vision, because it does meet with the needs of the institution." We've created a path. That $100 annual gift, we've talked about the impact it has done. I've engaged him in ways that he was really happy with, with our student scholars, with the director of our programs; he's seen the value of what making a bigger gift would make on our students before he made it. And then I went back and sat with him again, and I said, "Now that you've engaged on a much different level with the institution, do you feel like you're ready to take the next step?" And he said, "Yes, what do you think the steps are, and what does that look like?" And I shared my suggestions, and it ended up being endowing a full scholarship with $600k to support one student in full over four years.  

Karen Kendrick   

I love that. That's a great story, such a powerful story. So just a quick question, because it's probably in people's minds, because I think about $100 donor, and then the next gift over some time and engagement is $600,000. What are some things you said that made that not feel too crazy? What happened that helped with that huge leap? 

Nick Khoury   

Did the same thing, engaging him on a different level, to get him ready for the next bigger gift, which is now $3 million. But throughout all this process, we didn't waste time. Every time we had an interaction, Karen, it was a meaningful interaction where we delivered as an institution. We were transparent. I was transparent. I was honest in every single step, and that that kind of really resonated with the donor and moved Carolina into his top priorities. And you mentioned this earlier, if somebody is giving, and if somebody is a philanthropist, they're most likely giving to a lot of other areas, and they're working with other gift officers from different causes and different institutions, so they know what a good experience is. They know what authentic is. So being able to deliver on that and see the fact that he's moving Carolina towards the top of his priority is just amazing and so inspiring. And that was all because of that relationship building and finding that balance between being professional and not looking at him only as an ATM machine, but also being able to personalize these communications and these engagements towards his passion as a donor. 

Nick Khoury   

I won't lie to you, I was nervous. I was nervous. I was also nervous when I made the $3 million ask, because it is a huge jump. But obviously the work we do, we can do some background work to show us capacity and whatnot. But talking about the impact, you know, you start from the top down when it comes to the impact. You will support a student in full. You will change somebody's life; not only their life, but their family's life. Not only their family's life, but the community they came from, by supporting that one individual. And you can do that with endowing a $600,000 gift and being able to translate that into action and reality by talking about, perhaps, donors in his community who have done the similar things, and showing the impact they have done through endowing their own scholarships. And meeting some of these individuals, the students, and seeing the life-changing moments they're experiencing.  

Nick Khoury   

So you know, I grew up as a Christian. You don't have to be question Christian to refer to this, but Jesus, in the Bible said, "Ask, you shall receive." So I keep that in mind all the time. I have to ask to receive. And relating what sort of impact you can make with a $600,000 gift was important. Now, had he said no, let's go down, you know, I would have been ready to present other opportunities. 

Karen Kendrick   

So let's talk about that no for a minute. So you may have other stories of no; that's a beautiful story of continuing to move a donor into so much meaningful connection and impact for them and really matching their vision. So you've made it, let's say you make an ask to a donor, and they say, "No." What are some thoughts you have about how to best handle that? 

Nick Khoury   

That's a good question, Karen, again, one thing is, this is part of also my culture is we tend to kind of negotiate a lot. Growing up, even when we go to the market and somebody tells us, "This is the price," we know this is not the final price. And they negotiate to lower it. So I negotiate a "no" a for lack of better words by understanding better where this no is coming from. And what can we do to transition that no gradually to a yes, based on their timing? So I always ask, "Is there anything that we have done that we could have done better? Have I missed anything?"Again, that's a very common question I ask all the time. And that I think will provide some sort of feedback and some sort of even more information about the donor and about their capacity, about their interest, or their timing. Is itjust a no for now, or is it a no for the amount? Is that maybe a no now and a yes later? You can't understand that unless you dig into it.  

Nick Khoury   

And I will, I think I mentioned this to you, I will always remember early in my career, my first gift conversation I had with a donor to the university, where they said no to me. I asked for 50k. They said no to me. And they went and told my boss; they also had a good rapport with him. They went and told my boss. They said, "Nick took our no and didn't really ask why." They felt disappointed. And my boss told me, he became my mentor, he said, "Nick, always ask why." What's more behind that no? And I think that does justice, not just for you as a gift officer, but also for them. A lot of donors want you to kind of show more interest on why they sit there and where that is coming from. So I do take a no for an answer, don't get me wrong, but I spend time on learning where that is coming from.  

Karen Kendrick   

That's the point I love. This point about they also need to tell their story, right? That, you know, there's always this strategy in fundraising asking is that, you know, you should always ask more about why they said no, or maybe and see if you can get them to a yes or whatever it might be, which you know, obviously is understanding their time. You know, authentically it is understanding if that's the wrong ask, if it's timing, you know, what it is. And you never want it to be manipulation. But I don't think we talk about the fact that they also want us to ask because they want to tell their story. They want to be heard. And think about it, you've been doing all this work to build a relationship, and then they say no, and you're kind of like, "See ya." It could feel very inauthentic to all of a sudden no longer be curious. So we might respond by not asking questions because we get nervous and overwhelmed; we don't know quite what to do or say. So if you do that in a meeting, come back, come back later, say, you know, "I thank you. Thank you. Thank you for being authentic and real about where you all are and that this wasn't the right match. Do you mind if I ask you more questions? I really, you know, I'd love to hear more." So they, too, need to tell their story and that's a beautiful way to think about it. 

Nick Khoury   

Absolutely. And especially if you have, like you mentioned, spend time already investing in that relationship. We both deserve to have a better closure than just a no. It's just like a regular relationship when you're dating somebody for so long and you break up, or somebody, one of the two breaks up, and you deserve to know why. And the other person deserves to share their thought of their story. It feels incomplete if we just leave the conversation with no and we don't talk about why from both aspects. So I'm a big fan of being able to explore that a little more with the donor because I think it does serve them better, and serves us better too. 

Karen Kendrick   

I love that. Is there any donor story you haven't shared that you would love to share that sort of gives us some of the overview of the learnings, or are we good? 

Nick Khoury   

Well, I mean, I think one story that keeps coming to mind, and I think I shared that with you briefly, as well is that one donor who apparently I missed setting these expectations with from the beginning. And I had that agenda in mind, but did not really translate it to her in a way that made sense throughout the process of cultivation. And I would invite her all the time. She's a local. I would invite her to many football games where she would sit in the Chancellor's Box, and I will make sure that she meets key individuals who will help advance the engagement goals I have in my head, you know. And when I made the ask, she was surprised that I made the ask.  

Nick Khoury   

And I can tell that that sort of impacted the relationship, because throughout the whole time, in her mind, she thought, we are just becoming friends, and we clicked, and she's new to philanthropy too. She has capacity, but new to philanthropy. And, you know, I failed in building these expectations from the beginning. So I took a moment to pause after that last football game, when we met again for lunch and made the ask. And she was caught off guard, and I could tell and she was, she shared like she was... her expectation was, "Hey, she found a contact at Carolina. We're building this great relationship, and I could get her to football games, and here we are." So we paused and we restarted the conversation. But a lot has been done. We've known each other now for about two years, and she has made gifts throughout the way, but not to the place where we would like and she would like to be, and we're now moving towards that with the right agenda in mind and on the table, all of... both of us. 

Karen Kendrick   

I'm glad you brought that up, because it gets very confusing the whole... because you do have certain donors you click with, and it can feel like a friendship. And it is a friendship. However, there's also professional relationships. So I think a tool that I like to talk about is making sure you continually bring that up, right? So, "I want to meet with you next Thursday. I look forward to catching up, and I want to find out more about your thoughts on, you know, this proposal, or the touch point I sent, or this area of interest we've discussed." And then when you get in the meeting, you can be like, "All right, I know we're having a great conversation, but I want to make sure we have time for business." 

Karen Kendrick   

And so you're making it clear in your meetings and the opportunities that, yes, you have some personal connection. That's cool, but your role, and reminding, "My role is... to connect your vision and passion for our organization to the opportunities to really make that difference. And I know we adore each other, and this is a great, we're having a great time, but I want to make sure that I also am honoring to you and your vision and my organization." So remembering that it's not just in our heads; that we're saying that and making that relationship clear. That's a great story. 

Nick Khoury   

Absolutely. And you gotta look at it this way, Karen If you have a bad tooth and you're going to the dentist to get it fixed, the last thing you want is to sit on the seat and the dentist chats with you the whole time about the appointment, and you get out of the dentist office without getting that tooth fixed. You're wasting time. You're wasting your time. You're wasting the dentist... the dentist is wasting their time. And it doesn't really do anything. So we have to keep reminding ourselves of that, and be able to help the donors remind themselves of that as well. 

Karen Kendrick   

I love that. Yeah, we're in the relationship business, and that relationship is about, you know, really being a professional and connecting their vision and passion to the opportunity. Yes, I love that combination. Any final words or things you want to say? 

Nick Khoury   

No. I think everybody who's in this world will understand exactly what we're talking about. And I'd love to see and hear comments and feedbacks from a lot of people on how they create authentic relationships with their constituents and the people they work with. It's just a great place to be, I think, as advancement professionals. And just stay true to yourself, to your values, to the values of the organization you represent, and everything is going to be great. 

Karen Kendrick   

I love it. And my final words will be, one thing I'm noticing about you, Nick, is you're not scared to be wrong. Or you're not scared to not be perfect. I'm sure you've worked and cultivated this, but a lot of the language I hear you saying is, giving them an opportunity to give you honest feedback. And so many times we're trying to do everything right and get it all right and figure it all out, and we get in our own way of building trust, because we don't ask. So I really appreciate all your great questions you ask about what you could do better, or you did, you know, the timing is right, and all that that really helps donors go, "Oh, he seriously wants to be in a partnership with me." So thank you for all that wisdom. I hope you all enjoyed the podcast, and we look forward to hearing from you. Thank you, Nick. 

Nick Khoury   

Thank you, Karen. Beautiful. Thank you. 

Recorded   

Thank you for joining us for the Nothing But Major Gifts podcast from Veritus Group. Richard and Jeff also write an ongoing blog that you can subscribe to for free at Veritusgroup.com. Please join us again next time.