Measuring Metrics That Matter

Jeff Schreifels 

What metrics do you use to evaluate the success and progress of your fundraising program? A lot of non-profits default to metrics that are easy for managers to quantify, like how many phone calls or donor visits a fundraiser makes. But the problem with this approach is that it isn’t focused on building long-term relationships with donors. The call or visit becomes a box to tick off, rather than an opportunity for a meaningful connection with the donor. So for today’s episode, we’re taking a look at which metrics really matter in relational fundraising. Thanks for tuning in, and I hope you find it helpful.

Recorded 

Welcome to the Nothing But Major Gifts podcast from Veritus Group featuring Richard Perry and Jeff Schreifels. Twice a month, we bring you the latest and best thinking about major gift fundraising so you can develop authentic relationships with your major donors. Here are your hosts, Richard and Jeff.

Jeff Schreifels 

Welcome to the podcast today. I’m Jeff Schreifels. And today, I’ve invited two of our coaches, Debi Dunham and Matt Korn, to join me for a conversation about one of the most intensely discussed topics in fundraising. And that is metrics. We’ve had countless conversations with fundraisers, non-profit leaders, boards, and others about metrics. And one thing’s for sure, the wrong metrics, at best, serve as a crutch for leaders and managers, and at worst, are driving your fundraisers away. I really think this is going to be a great conversation. But before we get into it, I’d like to have Debi and Matt introduce themselves. Debi, why don’t you start first?

Debi Dunham 

Okay. Hi, everyone. My name is Debi Dunham, and I’ve been in development thirty plus years. As a fundraiser, frontline fundraiser, development officer, development director, and now I work with Veritus, for twelve and a half years. And I have the great privilege of working with, coaching about thirty-eight clients every week, from eight different organizations around the world. And it’s a privilege for me to work with these people who are helping their donors make a difference in the world.

Jeff Schreifels 

I would say Debi, you probably have coached over I mean, hundreds of people.

Debi Dunham 

Yes.

Jeff Schreifels 

I mean, you know everything out there. Matt! Why don’t you share?

Matt Korn 

Great. Yeah, thanks, Jeff. My name is Matt Korn. I have been in non-profit management and development for twenty plus years now, primarily in major gifts and stewardship in domestic and international organizations. And very happy to be approaching my one-year anniversary with Veritus. But in that time, I have been, I’ve been working with over twenty fundraisers, five or six different organizations now, and very privileged to be a part of the impact that’s being made in so many different areas. So, thanks for the invitation.

Jeff Schreifels 

Yeah, and you know, every time I hear from our clients about your work, Matt, they just have so many good things to say. So, we have two amazing people here to talk about this topic, because they’ve been in it for a while. So anyway, thanks to you for both being here.

Jeff Schreifels 

You know, metrics is a topic I’m very passionate about, because I see it damaging organizations all the time. I mean, I could probably spend this whole episode talking about the problems we see in the sector related to metrics. And it all boils down to this: organizations either have good managed metrics, or bad unmanaged metrics. That’s the way I see it. And what I mean by that is, managed if they have a really good manager, and they’re using metrics to help the major gift officer be better at what they do and develop deeper relationships with donors, and feel a sense of being able to grow in their job with those metrics.

Jeff Schreifels 

The unmanaged metrics, or the bad ones I say, are those activity-based metrics. So like, you know, how many phone calls did you make this month? How many face to face? How many solicitations did you make this month? All of these activity-based metrics that I would say, is developed because there is a lack of management, or there is… the non-profit doesn’t value managing so much. In other words, they’re not really sitting down with their major gift officers and finding out what’s going on every week with those folks. And instead, they put all these activity metrics, because if they can see that everyone is doing these activities, then they must be doing the right things. Right?

Jeff Schreifels 

So that’s the difference I see in these unmanaged, activity-based metrics versus really good managers who have strong metrics and some of those strong metric metrics are really about, have you had meaningful connections with donors? Is there a two-way engagement going on? Is that connection, that meaningful connection, moving the relationship forward? Do you have cashflow revenue goals for every donor and a strategic plan for every donor? And have you met with your manager every week? Because at the end of the day, you all know that the most important thing is for each MGO to be able to say, “Yes, I worked my strategic plan, I worked the plan.” And the only way you can know that is if a manager is actively involved with that person’s daily work, really.

Debi Dunham 

Jeff, I’m just going to interject a story, if that’s okay. I recently heard from a client who previously had a management team that really was curious about their activities. So they had to keep spreadsheets with how many like you said, emails and phone calls and texts and all that. And it was just overwhelming to this fundraiser, because I was talking to her about well, let’s talk about the meaningful two-way connections you’ve had with donors. And she was really feeling the stress and pressure. And it wasn’t until we talked with leadership, and you know, changed up the metrics to be more meaningful and less activity driven, that she found more joy in her work. And she was ready to move on. So it goes to your comment about fundraisers move on, because it’s just too time consuming, it takes away time from their actual donor engagements, and it’s a thing out there. And I’m glad to hear that we’re sharing with you all just the proper metrics to be looking at.

Jeff Schreifels 

I know, I mean, I remember Debi, a couple of years ago, I was at the University of Michigan. And I had breakfast with four major gift officers. We were sitting around the table. I said, “What’s your big pain points? What are your challenges right now?” And every one of them said, “It’s these metrics we’ve got to hit every month.” I said, “Well, tell me about that.” And they said, “We have this metric where we have to do thirty, face-to-face visits every month.” Thirty. Wow. And they said, “Every one of us, you know, the first week, it’s okay. But by the last week of the month, everyone is on edge, everyone is just trying to get a meeting with anyone. So that we can say that we met with a donor face-to-face; that we could check off that box.”

Jeff Schreifels 

And you could tell they were just so stressed out by this. I’m like, this is ridiculous. But this is happening across all the sectors in the non-profit world. Because it goes back to, we really don’t value management. And so we have to create these metrics, you know, to say that they’re actually doing something because it really is a trust factor too. It’s like, “Well, we don’t really trust that these major gift officers are doing their job. And so if we make sure that they’ve called 45 times, face-to-face, well, then at least we know that they’re doing something.” Right? So this is where metrics have gone crazy, I feel. But I’ll get off my soapbox now. But you can tell metrics is a topic that is really important, and I’m very passionate about. But, Debi, why don’t you share more about metrics and what you’re looking for to see in a fundraiser and how they’re progressing with the donor relationship?

Debi Dunham 

Okay. Well, like Jeff mentioned, we measure, our big measurement is meaningful connections. And what that means is a conversation and email exchange, a face-to-face that moves the donor closer to the work of your organization. And that can come in the form of all those different avenues. And we often, you know, there are leaders that say, “Well, they’ve got to see 100% of their donors face-to-face.” Well, if we’re really building authentic donor relationships and honoring their communication preference, we may not have 100% success rate of having face-to-face, but they’ll have a really strong success rate of those meaningful two-way connections that brings them closer to the organization. And it could be in the form of an intro call when you first talk with the donor and you’re thanking them for their support and asking open-ended questions about, “Do you mind sharing what inspired your giving for the last ten years?” And they share all this information. Well, you just… that was a goldmine. You just learned so much about that donor, and that will help you in the future to prepare your solicitations and your reporting back and all that. That’s a meaningful connection. Now, was it a face-to-face? No. But it was a meaningful connection that brought the donor closer to the mission. And those can be in the form of an email exchange where the donor has expressed interest in a certain project that you’re embarking upon. And you say, “Is it okay if I send you a menu of opportunities?” And they say yes. You email, you follow up. And they give an increased gift. Once again, meaningful connection, but it wasn’t a face-to-face. But it’s honoring that donor and leading the donor closer to the organization.

Debi Dunham 

The other thing we look at is working the plan. And first of all, implementing the plan, planning the plan, I should say, by month, you know, you’re putting in touch points every month for your major donors. Not one size fits all. I mean, they will get a lot of the direct mail, marketing materials, but you really want to do individual touch points for every donor. Particularly your As, really highly personalized. And then those will provide you lots of meaningful connections. And those are the activities and the metrics that we measure, is do you have a plan for every donor? And setting goals for every donor on your caseload, not just the As, but you go donor by donor individually, look at their past giving, set the goal, and then you take that goal, and if they give twice a year, you put it in the month that you expect it. So that’s another metric we measure. Are you executing the plan? Did you set the goals? Did you cashflow the goals? And Jeff and Matt, if you have some comments about that, I would welcome that.

Jeff Schreifels 

Yeah, I mean, I think that is a key in major gifts because at the end of the day, if you have a plan and a goal, that’s cashflowed, management knows exactly what’s going to come in every month. Then you’re having better conversations earlier in the month if something seems off. Like before the gift doesn’t come in that month, you should know that right? It shouldn’t be a surprise. And having that cashflowed goal allows you to have better conversations with your major gift officer.

Jeff Schreifels 

And then, you know, the other beautiful thing that I love about that is that you know… in major gifts, things are volatile, right? So let’s say you’ve got a goal of half a million dollars for a donor and it was supposed to come in in October, and that something happens in that donor’s life, that it’s now not going to be five hundred; it’s going to be one hundred. Well, is that your fault? As a major gift officer? Did you not do the work necessary to get the five hundred? No, you did. Right? But things happen in major gifts. The point is, do you know why you didn’t make your goal? So that one donor could throw your whole goal off for the year. And you’re now below goal. That doesn’t mean you’re not effective as a fundraiser. Because you know exactly why you didn’t make the goal.

Jeff Schreifels 

You know, when we do our reports, our quarterly reports that we do for our clients, I think even when we’re down, it’s beautiful to be able to tell the client exactly why. And that’s the problem that many non-profits have. They have no idea why they’re down. All of our clients, when we’re working with them, if we’re down in revenue, we know exactly why. And I think that’s what everyone in major gifts, working in major gifts, should know. They have to know why. They aren’t you know… Matt, maybe you can share a little bit more about the importance of focusing on meaningful connections and what’s required to really get in there.

Matt Korn 

Yeah, absolutely. Thanks, Jeff. And I think this is what really separates Veritus and why so many of the major gift officers and mid-level officers that we’ve worked with see results, because there’s such an emphasis placed on relationships. And so to kick off this part of the conversation, I do think it’s important to first touch base on that difference between being donor centric and organizational centric. And so with donor centric, which is what we really coach to, it’s really having those deep conversations with donors, finding out their passions, their interests, what drives them, what inspires them. And then for us as fundraisers, to be that bridge between those passions and the work our organization is doing.

Matt Korn 

If we’re working from an organizational centric standpoint, it’s more of an approach of treating a donor like an ATM, it’s not listening to the donor, it’s thinking simply about what we need, and giving that sales pitch. Yeah, what we really want to do is treat donors like partners in this work. When we think about partners, partners or people we value, we want to know what makes them tick. And when we’re approaching, that’s all part of that donor centric approach. And when we’re doing that, we are able to establish those meaningful connections that really drive to interests and passions.

Matt Korn 

Now, as far as as developing those meaningful connections, at Veritus, we coach a couple of key steps in that process. One is working with, or qualifying donors. And that means really putting in the work to create or get a response from a donor that says, hey, I really want to be connected to you, I want to see how I can further your work. Debi was just speaking so well to the touch point plan. We then build those individualized touch point plans that really tell the donor that we’re listening. And this doesn’t even need to be the quarterly newsletter, right? It can be “Hey, Jeff, you know, you’re in my portfolio. I know you’re a huge Phillies fan, you know what I saw the game last night, I just saw this really cool article.” And I send it to you the next day about the Phillies and you’re like, “Man Matt really listens to me, you know, this isn’t just about him trying to trying to get a gift.” And so it’s about the touch point planning.

Matt Korn 

And then another piece that we really coach to is the Permission-Based Asking model, which is is a process of asking permission from the donor through every step of a conversation, and making sure that they are comfortable every step of the way through cultivation and solicitation. And we have plenty of information that we’d be happy to share with anybody about permission-based asking. When we think about again, getting back to the donor centric model, when that isn’t being used, what we see as far as challenges for an organization, one, our donors become frustrated, and will leave. They will take their giving elsewhere, because they’re not being listened to. They’re just really listening to pitches from the organization. And then as fundraisers we have to look internally. If you don’t know your donors, if you don’t know what makes them tick, what they’re passionate about, and you’re not able to deliver an ask or have a conversation that excites them, you’re going to get, most likely, negative responses that are uncomfortable. And fundraisers are going to get frustrated and could very likely end up leaving the organization. So we really coach to staying donor centric and developing those meaningful connections.

Jeff Schreifels 

Those are really good points, Matt. Now, Debi, when we work with fundraisers, we coach to the managed metrics and really focus on accountability and strategy. Can you share more about how we approach this? And the kinds of questions leaders can be asking their own fundraisers?

Debi Dunham 

Yes. I’m happy to. Typically when we start our fundraising coaching calls, we like to hear wins, and that goes with the meaningful connections. A win could be, I finally reached a donor and we made a two-way connection; I qualified five donors this week; or, know that solicitation I told you about last week, well, it went really well. And I’ll say tell me more. And they share the steps they went through using permission-based asking, and then they did the close and the donor said yes. And they increased their giving. And they share that. Well, everyone loves to share a win. So I always like to lead with that. And I think that’s important to make the fundraiser feel good about this work that they do. And then we’re sharing upline with their leaders as well. So I typically lead with that.

Debi Dunham 

But what that does is it opens up some doors for me to say okay, so you met with the donor, let’s talk about next steps. What are you thinking? And they’ll say, Well, I’m going to send a thank you, or I gave him a tour. And I think that whenever you bring someone on site, and they see their work firsthand, they need a follow-up call the next day to say, oh, you know, can I ask, did you learn anything new or did anything bubble up that you might have a question about? Well, sometimes fundraisers don’t think to do that. And I think it’s important to, you know, kind of capitalize on that emotional high; not to manipulate but to say, wow, you know, share with me what you think if that’s okay. And they do and it kind of leads to next steps of, well, you know, would you like to hear how you know, an increased gift could make a difference? We have some urgent needs we mentioned. Oh, yes, please. And then you can go into that. And then you can do the whole permission-based asking solicitation.

Debi Dunham 

So I ask about next steps. And then we typically move from there after I hear about all these great connections. We move to looking at their touch points, and kind of where they’re at with, you know, they’re executing the plan. Then what I’ll do is, you know, I’ll say, Okay, so next month, you’re going to do x, y, z. What are you doing for the A donors that’s different than the Bs and the Cs? Because you know, you want to spend 50% of your time with your As and do more personalized touch points. Ok, well, I think I’ll write a note on the newsletter that I’m sending out with a little post it and say, you know, look at page two, because you helped fund this project. And thank you so much for your support. Boom. So we talk about that kind of thing. I do always ask, you know, any challenges you’re having with donors? And that is a really good question to ask because they’ll go, well, this one donor, you know, he was a little bit quiet on our meeting, and I’m not quite sure how to move the relationship forward, closer to the organization. So we’ll talk about those kinds of things. I’m talking a lot. So if you all want to interject, please do. But…

Jeff Schreifels 

No, no. I mean, what I hear you saying is, you’re providing accountability. You’re asking very strategic questions, you’re asking a lot, you’re being very curious, you’re getting all of this out of the major gift officer or mid-level officer that you’re working with. And, you know, that’s a different thing than they’re probably ever used to. They’ve never really had someone to come alongside of them, to provide that accountability, to ask those questions to, you know, celebrate with them at the beginning. Well, you know, what were your wins? But then you also, and Debi, you’re one of the best at this, you’re challenging them as well, you’re pushing them. Why don’t you talk a little bit about how you do that with the fundraisers that you work with.

Debi Dunham 

Okay, well, thank you. One of the things I always look at in our donor engagement plan, I’ll go to the next month, prior year giving. So I’ll look at June today. I did that with a couple of clients this morning. And I said, there, here’s a fifteen, and here’s a five, and here’s a ten that gave last year. Let’s talk about how you’re going to stretch them to possibly give twenty this year for the $15,000 donor. And what does that look like for you? Well, I could pick up the phone and call them and check in. I said, that’s a great idea. Or I could ask if they’d be open to hearing some urgent, you know, needs that go to our match program. And so we talked through that, and then, I really do encourage them to do a check-in call. A lot of people will write a note, but sometimes they go, oh, I don’t know, what do I say? Well, let’s talk about that. What’s the fear that you’re having right now of just picking up the phone? You can easily say I’m just calling to check in to see how your spring is going, and are you safe from the tornadoes or whatever’s going on in their city. So it’s always good to do check-in calls also. So I kind of challenge them with those kinds of things.

Debi Dunham 

And then I also look at the previous month’s giving, and I’m like, okay, so this one didn’t give this month. What can we do to try to reach out to them and talk with them and see if they’re open to talking about their support? And once again, you know, that’s a challenging conversation to have with a donor. But it really isn’t. If you’re just asking if they’re open to a conversation, you’re not saying, hey, you didn’t give $5,000 last month, can you give $6,000? You know, it’s just not like that. Because as Matt said, they’re not ATM machines, right? They want to give to your organization. That’s why they’re committed to you. And that’s why they do it. And that’s why they pick up the phone and talk to you. So try to get rid of some of those fears that you have related to that. So we talk a lot about that too.

Jeff Schreifels 

Why don’t you tell me some of the characteristics or the difference-makers for successful fundraisers versus those that you’ve coached that may have been more challenging for you? Like, those that are really good, tell me more. What are they like?

Debi Dunham 

Well, you touched on one thing already, which is curious. That’s really key. I love that. And you know, most fundraisers are relational. So you know, I call that the it factor that you can’t really train that. We can train all the fundamentals and the processes that Veritus has, but that highly relational curious, tenacious, you know, for when you’re trying to qualify, you need to keep executing the plan, and donors will eventually talk to you. And I think too, just being emotionally intelligent, to kind of pick up cues from donors, even over the phone. And if they’re asking or if they’re hesitant, you know, do you mind Matt, if I ask a clarifying question around… You know, I sense you’re a little hesitant, can I ask a question? And they say yes. And then you ask open-ended question. So I’d say curiosity, tenacity, high, you know, EQ. EQ?

Jeff Schreifels 

yes.

Debi Dunham 

And, you know, just working the plan and staying faithful and accountable. I have had a few challenging ones that typically get pulled into other things. And they get sidetracked, which we all do. And the tyranny of the urgent and putting out fires, whether it’s an event, which you know, we have strong feelings about major gift officers planning events. Or, you know, internal meetings. I have one client that really has a ton of internal meetings that probably take out up to eight to ten hours a week. So, yes, so I think, you know, I help kind of, as a coach, we help kind of right the ship and say, okay, let’s talk about these donors that, you know, you haven’t had a chance to reach out to so we do. As Matt said, we’re a partner. We’re not like, how come you didn’t do this? But we are holding them accountable, because it helps them be a more successful fundraiser.

Jeff Schreifels 

And when they are held accountable, you do see the success. I think you have a story, Debi, of Bailey and John.

Debi Dunham 

Yes.

Jeff Schreifels 

Why don’t you tell that story?

Debi Dunham 

Okay. Well, this is a mid-level officer. Matter of fact, she is the one I talked to this morning. And she had a donor that had given $1,500. And she picked up the phone, like she always does and thanked him. And he was surprised that she called and, you know, asked some good questions, like, what inspired the gift? And do you mind sharing, you know, how…? I see you’ve been giving for three years. And he just said, well, I’ve seen the work that you do overseas in the medical field. And I’m just, you know, thrilled to be a part of your team. And she then said, somehow, she brought up other projects. She said, you know, if you’re interested, I have some exciting projects that if you want to hear about that we haven’t shared with many people. And he said yes. And she shared about a water project. And he perked up and he said, oh, that’s so important. And you know, it went on and on. But then she ended the conversation, before she ended, she said, would you be okay, if I sent you a list of some needs that we have, particularly in Liberia? And he said, oh, absolutely. Sent it. Followed up. He said, even before she could ask if he had questions, you know what? My wife and I talked about it; we want to give $3,000 for one well.

Debi Dunham 

Well, of course she celebrated him and they developed the relationship. She continued to reach out probably every six to eight weeks. And some other projects came up in Liberia; new water wells in other parts of the city or country. She received some information that they needed three more, and she she asked me, do you think I should send it and I said, well, why don’t you ask him if it’s okay? She did. And he said, yes. And she goes, should I just send one? Because he you know, he gave fifteen, then three. I said, oh no, send all three. Let him decide. We always say that: let the donor decide. So she sent them. And sure enough, he called and he said, you know what? I’ll do all three. So we went from fifteen to three to another three. So what is that? $12,000.

Debi Dunham 

Then she did a beautiful touch point. And we call that a YMAD: you made a difference. And while they were in the country, they happened to film, she asked them to film a bunch of children like this, drinking out of the well. I mean, I teared up when she told me that. And she sent it to him and his wife, and he called her and was crying and said, I’ve never been sent something like this. And thank you so much. I want to continue to support and it was just so special. But the point of that was we talked it through. I helped her with the verbiage, she wrote down what she should say, and it was a beautiful coaching experience and beautiful for him, for her, and the donor and the the kids that got fresh water. And now he’s giving $20,000.

Jeff Schreifels 

$12,000.

Jeff Schreifels 

I mean, that’s amazing. I mean, this is what we do for our clients. But if you’re a manager, this is what you can do for your own frontline fundraiser.

Debi Dunham 

Yes.

Jeff Schreifels 

That ongoing management, that ability to be able to encourage the major gift officer or mid-level officer in this case, to you know, put it out there, let the donor decide. And give him that encouragement to do that. That’s amazing. That’s a great story. I love that.

Jeff Schreifels 

So now that we’ve touched on a few times leaders have, as you know, leaders have a significant role in the metrics conversation and need to be on board with the managed metrics approach. But changing the mindsets and shifting a culture really can be challenging. So Matt, can you speak to some of the tips and strategies our audience could use to start moving the culture out of this activity metrics approach?

Matt Korn 

For culture change, right, a big, big question. And that’s certainly what you’re driving towards, and how we shape our questions. How we challenge the fundraisers and the leadership that we work with. And in thinking about culture change and leadership, a couple of key points there. And one is, really working with an organization in terms of does the entire organization, all the teams internally, understand how they can contribute to the fundraising process? And what I mean by that is you… I have a few examples. You look at your finance team: are gifts being properly accounted for? We look at our programs teams; are they reporting on impact in a timely manner in delivering on what was told or proposed to a donor? And our responsibility as fundraisers within that: are we reporting back to the donors? Are we saying thank you? But also looking at our responsibility internally, that when we do secure a big gift and get a big win, are we telling our colleagues, our internal teams, how they contributed to that?

Matt Korn 

There’s one example of a client I had worked with who, a major gift officer, had been working with two very generous donors for a couple of years. Giving had stayed pretty consistent, but the donors were happy with what they were seeing. And they approached this major gift officer and said, hey, we’re ready to step this up. We want to go big with you guys. We trust you. We like what we’ve seen. And so obviously, the major gift officer was thrilled, was talking to the programs team. And for a couple of different reasons, just could not get proposals or plans out of the programs team. There was always an excuse: it’s not quite ready, we don’t quite have the financials, this and that. And, eventually, she just had, really had nothing to take back to these donors. And fortunately, they continued to give at the level they had been giving. But their response was, we were ready to go big with you, we still love you. We understand that there are some internal challenges. The major gift officer was being very transparent, which is why they trusted her and stayed with her. But there was a real disconnect there in terms of understanding how the whole organization could support that fundraising effort. So that’s one key area.

Matt Korn 

A second one is do all teams internally really understand the role that donor plays? Meaning that the donor is in there to help impact significant change. And when you think about it, from that perspective, fundraising becomes really exciting. I mean, you’re working with these people that have the means to change the world. And when we can approach it like that, rather than a… more of that sales pitch, it takes away some of the fear of the ask. Some of the anxiety behind the ask. And then it becomes really exciting. And then looking at, really understanding, making sure that the donor recognizes that they’re part of the process. Being transparent with them all the way through, being honest, having that open dialogue. It’s making sure donors are a part of that process.

Matt Korn 

And then, Jeff, as you’ve been speaking to, what I would wrap up with here is that management piece, that leadership piece. We really hope to move away from those activity-based metrics. Like you said, we’re not just trying to check boxes. Did you make… ? Did you send 100 emails this week? Or this month? Did you make 50 phone calls this month? Well, that’s all fine and good, but we want to really dive down, establish those meaningful connections. We want to see managers have weekly meetings with their fundraisers; come in with structured conversations. Debi, to your points, are they asking the fundraisers the questions: are you getting to know your donors better? What questions are you asking? And we see time and time again when that is happening, fundraisers are excited about what they’re doing, the whole organization is on board, and we see revenue increase.

Jeff Schreifels 

Yeah. Good stuff. Good stuff. Well, thank you for joining me, Debi and Matt. And we hope that this has inspired you to start thinking about metrics differently. And to begin to make the changes needed to measure metrics that matter. Any of you can do exactly what we’ve discussed and outlined today, but if you’d like to have an expert coach to walk alongside you and your fundraising team, then we’d love to connect. Head to the show notes to get the conversation started, or send my colleague, Amy, an email at achapman@veritusgroup.net. Take care and we’ll see you next time.

Recorded 

Thank you for joining us for the Nothing But Major Gifts podcast from Veritus Group. Richard and Jeff also write an ongoing blog that you can subscribe to for free at veritusgroup.net. Please join us again next time.