Usually, people have the best of intentions. But it’s shocking how many organizations have internalized some misguided views of fundraising without realizing how their mindset is hurting their donor relationships.
There’s plenty of wrong thinking out there, and on today’s episode, we’ll talk about what it looks like when fundraising leaders and professionals don’t prioritize the donor. Remember, donors are not a means to an end. They’re the lifeblood of your organization and partners in achieving your mission.
Keep an open mind as you listen in today; if you’ve made these mistakes, that’s ok to admit. Making mistakes is all part of the process. But if you aren’t learning and growing each time, then you’re missing out on opportunities for positive change.
Show Highlights: In this episode, we’ll share how non-profits unintentionally damage their donor relationships when they…
- Don’t understand the role of fundraising
- Promote a misguided view of the role of the donor
- Fail to recognize the spiritual nature of giving
- Treat donors as a means to an end
- Set up a system and structure that is disconnected from the donor journey
Veritus Group is passionate about partnering with you and your organization throughout your fundraising journey. We believe that the key to transformative fundraising is a disciplined system and structure, trusted accountability, persistence, and a bit of fun. We specialize in mid-level fundraising, major gifts, and planned giving, helping our clients to develop compelling donor offers and to focus on strategic leadership and organizational development. You can learn more about how we can partner with you at www.VeritusGroup.com.
Additional Resources:
- [BLOG] Mistakes You’re Making That Suppress Major Donor Giving
- [VIDEO] What’s Holding Non-Profits Back From Treating Their Donors Well?
- [WHITE PAPER] Building a Culture of Philanthropy
Read the Full Transcript of This Podcast Episode Here:
Jeff Schreifels
There’s not a non-profit out there that intends to drive donors away. And yet, it’s happening. Having analyzed hundreds of donor files, we know for a fact that donor attrition rates are between 40 to 60%, on average. So to help you discover how to better retain your donors, today we’re talking about all the terrible things non-profits do that hurt their donor relationships. Avoid these blunders, and you’ll already be on a path to better serving your donors and accomplishing more for your mission.
Recorded
Welcome to the Nothing But Major Gifts podcast from Veritus Group, featuring Richard Perry and Jeff Schreifels. Twice a month, we bring you the latest and best thinking about major gift fundraising, so you can develop authentic relationships with your major donors. Here are your hosts, Richard and Jeff.
Jeff Schreifels
Welcome to the podcast today. I’m Jeff Schreifels. And I’ve got Richard here with me. This is going to be a fun conversation because we’ll be talking about some of those absolutely terrible mistakes that make you want to pull your hair out that we hear non-profits doing that are damaging the organization’s relationships with their donors.
Richard Perry
That’s why I don’t have any hair left Jeff, because I’ve pulled it all out. But we’ve certainly heard some crazy stories over the years, haven’t we? I mean, oh, my gosh. Now, as we go through these, you got to keep an open mind and be willing to recognize that you may have done some of these things, too. I mean, that happens.
Jeff Schreifels
Well no doubt.
Richard Perry
But you now have an opportunity to learn the lesson and change your approach moving forward.
Jeff Schreifels
Oh, that’s a really good point, Richard, because making mistakes, or making the wrong call is really, it’s all part of the process. But if you aren’t learning from that, then you’re missing out on a big part of the experience. So let’s get started today, let’s talk a little bit about some of the thinking that leads fundraising leaders and professionals to do those totally terrible things. So, Richard, let’s start with the first one. And this one is really about the bigger picture, not really understanding the role of fundraising in an organization.
Richard Perry
I know, it’s just so basic. I mean, like, commercial companies understand the role of sales and marketing in the commercial area. I mean, if they didn’t have it, they wouldn’t be actually selling any product or services. But for some reason, fundraising, they sort of like just reduced down to this, in some cases, “Well we’ve just got to do it so we can just get the money.” And they don’t elevate it up to a level of valuing, in fact, in the hierarchy it’s like program, you know, is the very most important thing. And then fundraising is this distant cousin that lives in a small shed out back.
Jeff Schreifels
I know. That’s exactly what’s happening. And it’s just like, this is why we see non-profit leaders not wanting to invest in the program to make more money. Like how many times Richard, have we presented a plan to an organization that shows if you invest this X amount right now, in two years, it will return four times as much right, five times, I mean, it’s like, why wouldn’t you do something like that? And, you know, it’s because they don’t care about the fundraising side of things.
Richard Perry
Well, I mean, I had a situation where, I mean, there’s that, and then there’s a situation of just valuing things. Like, for instance, when you look at a non-profit, what a non-profit exists to do is perform a societal benefit, to address a societal problem. That’s what it does. And so the mission of the organization is to do X or Y. Right? And of course, that’s the most important thing. But then what’s not valued is the fact that you’ve got to bring along a host of donors, individual and institutional donors, right, to actually get that done. And that part there is as we’re going to be talking about later on in this podcast is also a very important function. Yeah. That’s not only not only about getting the money, but it’s about all the dynamics, the human expression, the investment of other people. I mean, it’s a very important function. Another area here that that’s interesting that is sometimes misguided is misunderstanding the role of the donor.
Jeff Schreifels
Yeah, so what you just said prior to this, it just flows into this, it’s like, well, they don’t care about fundraising, or they don’t really understand the role that fundraising places, and they don’t understand how important the donor is in the whole relationship to the ecosystem of this whole non-profit and how it runs. Without the donor, you’re not going to have the program. And, you know, in not honoring the donor, and looking at them just as a source of revenue to get the program done? That’s the other side of this is that they totally don’t understand that if you are going to do this big mission, and you’re going to bring in individual donors to help you, they have to be looked at as partners.
Richard Perry
Exactly, exactly. This, I think, over the years, Jeff, what we’ve discovered on this point is that if you analyze what’s absolutely happening in this whole area of the donor, as it relates the organization, it’s a human being, who has a calling, and I’m using the word calling not as a spiritual term, but just as a purpose. There’s a purposeness to this person, in this person’s life that says, you know, I want to do something about that. And so they’ve now sought this non-profit out and said, and I want to do it with you. And so it’s, it’s a portion of this person’s essence that’s trying to express itself through the non-profit. Well, this is a very delicate and precious thing. I mean, it’s not just like, well, we’ll just get the $100 or the $1,000, and be done with them. Right. I mean, that’s why it’s just so so critical to pay attention to the fact that, which is why we use this phrase over and over again, that fundraising is not about the money. Yes, it isn’t. It really isn’t. It’s about bringing like-minded people, and by the way, like-minded institutions, and as partners to get the stuff done.
Jeff Schreifels
Yeah. That kind of ties into the next one that there’s misguided thinking about, and I wish more leaders would embrace this, is that we don’t recognize the spiritual nature of giving. You know, and you see non-profit leaders, you know, talk crassly about, well, we just, you know, we just got to bring in the money, just go out there and ask some people and, you know, for the cash, because we got to get this thing done. And then understanding what happens when someone gives that that mystical experience that we’ve often written about and talked about, that happens when a donor who wants to change the world releases their money, their hard earned cash, their living that they made, you know, and gives it to you as the organization because they trust that you’re going to do something amazing with it and help change the world.
Richard Perry
Well, and they trust that you’re going to do something that they want to get done. It’s not just about us trying to get something done, “we” over here in the non-profit. And I think some people confuse when we say the word spiritual, we don’t mean it with a capital S. We’re not we’re not trying to say it’s a certain religious, you know, aspect to it or a certain, you know, a faith journey, although people of faith, we would say it’s both the small s and large S for those folks. But there is like, you used the word mystical, there is this very special, almost undefinable thing that happens when someone’s giving, And trust and sacredness, these words are very important in that whole transaction. If we don’t go with that, then we’re basically manipulating and stealing. We’re reaching into people’s wallets and purses and taking their money. Which is why we have so much donor value attrition and donor attrition is because we’re treating people poorly and we don’t realize the nature of giving. Which is down this other track, this is kind of a related point, is misguided thinking on treating donors, not as an end in and of themselves, but as a means to an end. And Jeff, you and I both know what it feels like to be used. I mean, it is a horrible feeling to have someone basically value us from what they can get from us. And we’ve often used the word and I use it very frequently too like, I’ll say, well, well, that person is a taker. They just take.
Jeff Schreifels
Yeah, and we see a lot of organizations that are takers, you know. They want the money. And they don’t, you know, the donors like, over here. And so it is, it’s like a person that takes advantage of you. Don’t feel good about that person. But the organization justifies it because oh, well, we have this mission we’ve got, that’s where we really have to focus on, you know, the donors are just getting us the money to go there. So we can take advantage of these people. That’s what, I mean, the organization’s not saying that, but in their actions, that’s what the donors are feeling.
Richard Perry
Exactly. That’s exactly how it comes out. And I remember this one situation. And you’ll recall, once I started talking about it of the organization that didn’t have enough labor to process the Christmas giving. And so you remember, we discovered when we were visiting the office of this organization, about a thousand letters that had been unprocessed in February. So all the way from December giving they had been sitting on this table. And when we looked inside each of the letters, the money was gone. But the letter was still sitting there. So I asked the person so why, where’s the money? “Oh, well, we processed that the minute it came in.” “Oh so then, what’s the letter sitting here for?” “Well because we just didn’t have the labor to actually get back to the donor.” So they’ve taken the donors’ money, means to an end, and they’ve not actually talked to the donor at all. I mean, this is just abusive. It’s unethical.
Jeff Schreifels
We’ll take the money, but we don’t really appreciate you enough to spend the money to get this back to you quickly and let you know that it made it.
Richard Perry
Exactly. And the funny thing is, is when you look at the losses, the attrition, value attrition losses of that organization, they were in the millions of dollars, Jeff. Money that they could have spent to have the labor in December, which then would have reduced the amount of loss they would have had, which would have netted more money for program and mission. It just does not make sense. So when you treat donors as a means to an end, this is what happens.
Jeff Schreifels
I know this, it goes back up to not understanding the role of fundraising. They’re, all these things we talked about are all interconnected. And this last one’s even bigger, I think. This terrible thing, and that is, the organization doesn’t have systems that are set up to support the whole donor journey, the major donor journey of the pipeline, and, not only setting the organization up correctly, as far as the organization and how people are working in different areas, but then also investing properly, from acquisition all the way to playing.
Richard Perry
Exactly. Yeah, so you have a situation where an organization will invest $2 million or $3 million in the acquisition of donors. Now why? Because they need to grab the donors in order to get the money. But they won’t invest in the cultivation and care of the donors they’ve acquired. That just does not make sense. Like, why would you do that? I mean, even if you’re just just purely selfish and you’re going to use donors as a means to an end and you don’t really care, it seems like you would invest the money to properly take care of them now from our approach, if you know, we would want you to invest the money to secure the donor. We would also want you to invest the money to care for the donor properly and show respect for them, which in turn will develop net revenue at a higher rate than the not caring for them.
Jeff Schreifels
Exactly. And then, continue to move that, move up with it. So then we see organizations with no mid-level program, barely any major gift program. Like how many organizations, Richard, I mean, large multi-million dollar organizations that have this amazing acquisition and cultivation engine. But they have no mid-level or major gift program, and so there’s no place for those donors to go. It’s like we’re telling the donor, hey, we love that $25 gift. And we know you probably want to give more, but we’re not going to allow you to.
Richard Perry
It’s crazy. It’s crazy. Well, and not setting up support systems to properly care for donors, the whole receiving function. The reporting back function, how many organizations do not have a system in place to report and tell the donor how their gift made a difference? This is something I just do not understand. I mean, from purely an economic point of view, you are losing money, folks, if you don’t invest in the back end of reporting back to the donor, you will lose money, you’ll lose a significant amount of money and donors, if you don’t do that, so why aren’t you doing it? Separate from the fact that you ought to just be doing it because it’s the respectful and honoring thing to do. Just so there you go. Not setting up those support.
Jeff Schreifels
It’s no wonder you’re bald. I mean, I knew you when you had a lot of hair.
Richard Perry
I know.
Jeff Schreifels
It was beautiful hair.
Richard Perry
I know, I’m in deep trouble now.
Jeff Schreifels
All right, well, let’s let’s talk about some of the terrible things non-profits do related to asking for a gift. And some of the things we’ve heard about, or we’ve experienced, and we’ll just kind of go through these a little quicker, because otherwise we’d be here forever, seriously.
Richard Perry
Well yeah, I mean, like, one of them is like you send out an appeal to your donor in any address it “Dear donor,” or worse yet, you get the name wrong. I mean, how many times have you gotten the name wrong?
Jeff Schreifels
That is just awful. Well, here’s the thing. Donors want to be known. The very least you can do is make sure you get their name, right. Because once you get it wrong, or you got, you know, Mr. Jeff Schreifels, no one says that. Like, you know, they don’t care about you, that you’re just, you know, a number. Or how about this one: you asked for a gift, donor gives you a gift, and then you take a month or more to thank them. That’s like your story.
Richard Perry
Yeah, that’s one right there. A version of that is, they gave a gift, so like, we have a situation I remember one where the donor gave $1,000. The organization then asks, you know, for a gift of $35, or more, whatever you can do, and hasn’t acknowledged the $1,000 that they gave plus, is totally unaware of the fact that they’re giving at a whole different level. Or here’s another one, you spend as much time on $1000 per year donors, as you do a $100,000 per year donor?
Jeff Schreifels
Oh I know. I mean, this is a case where, you know, you’re asking these $100,000 donors, you’re, you’re only cultivating them through the mail, or you’re barely reaching out to them personally. And yet, you got a $1000/year donor that someone really likes on your staff, and now they’re spending a bunch of time with that donor. I mean, it’s just out of whack. Which is why we do all our tiering and we, you know, so that we can help major gift officers focus on the donors that are giving the highest net worth value for you. So that happens all the time.
Jeff Schreifels
How about this one? The CEO refuses to ask donors for a gift. We see this a lot. Yeah, you know, they’re like, “Well, I don’t really like fundraising. I’m not comfortable.” Knowing, and here’s the thing, if you want to cultivate major donors, those major donors who want to make six and seven figure gifts, they want to speak to the CEO. They want to hear from them. So if you’re not willing to do that, don’t expect to get those big gifts.
Richard Perry
Well, this is where a board of directors or whoever’s hiring a CEO, or Executive Director or president of the organization should actually have as one of the criteria, your willingness and ability to ask. I mean, it’s important, very good. Here’s one, if you have a donor that gives you a large gift to fund a project and the project doesn’t go as planned. Instead of communicating that to the donor, you hide the problem. Which is sort of like the next one that you were going to rang up about being transparent. I mean, you’re not open with the donor about what’s going on.
Jeff Schreifels
You have to be transparent, you have to be honest. If things go bad, you have to talk to them. And we know because we’ve experienced these with other organizations, both on the positive and the negative side, when you tell the truth, and you’re open about it to the donor, the donors most likely have the empathy and understanding. Because not everything goes right, you know?
Richard Perry
I mean, it never does in business. I mean, life is that way, you have more failures to get to the successes. I mean, that’s just how it is.
Jeff Schreifels
But then we’ve seen on the other side, when they hold back, and they don’t tell the donor, they eventually do get in trouble, because people find out.
Richard Perry
Yep, yep. Here’s one, you have a donor who gives $5,000 every year, but you never challenge that donor to give more because you’re afraid they’ll get upset. Oh, this one is so interesting to me. Because it’s like, well, of course, if you don’t actually sit and talk to the donor about what they want to accomplish through the organization, and how much more they could do, and you’re talking at that level, but if you’re just talking about getting more money? Of course, they’re going to be upset.
Jeff Schreifels
Yes. It’s crazy. Well, this is what happened. We create all this, this mindset, we create a story in our head about our donors, especially the ones that, you know, every year, they’ve been giving the same amount. And when we ask the major gift officer like, “Well, why aren’t you they giving more?” “Well, they always just give in November that $5,000 check.” “Have you ever asked them for more?” “Oh, no. I mean, we never really have to ask, they just give that gift.” I’m like, “Well, wait a minute, do you know them very well?” “You know, not really, because I don’t want to bother them.” And they create this story in their head about a donor who could be giving so much more. But they’re not. They’re not engaging them. They’re just getting that $5,000 gift and you know, at least they can count on that.
Richard Perry
But that’s focusing on the money. And that’s the problem. If you were focused with that donor on what that donor wants to accomplish, then the conversation would be like, “Well, what else are we going to do to get this problem that we both care about, get this problem solved?” Yeah, that’s a whole different thing.
Jeff Schreifels
Yeah. All right. I want to switch now to talking about some other terrible things. And this is really around the system and the structure of major gifts.
Richard Perry
Okay, yep. So on that one, you allow your major gift officers, here’s one, to have hundreds of unqualified donors in their portfolios, hoping that the larger the portfolio, the greater the chance of getting the $1 million gift and so like, 500, 600? I mean, remember the one major gift officer that had 1200 people on the caseload. Like, really?
Jeff Schreifels
And they knew like 25 of them, really.
Richard Perry
Yes. And so it doesn’t make any sense.
Jeff Schreifels
Yeah, or you don’t have an internal system that helps the organization know how the real cost of their projects and program, including the overhead costs, you know, so no one knows. You know, they’re just asking for operations. And, you know, they’re not actually trying to help donors specifically give their gifts to tangible things that can do this with their giving.
Richard Perry
Yep, this is a big area. And so like, if you take a non-profit‘s budget, and you say, okay, let’s look at that one area, like, how much do you spend in that one area? Well, we spent $2 million. Well, no, you don’t, you probably spent $2.8 million because you got to add the overhead in. That’s actually part of what the cost is. So that’s what you’re talking about there.
Jeff Schreifels
Yeah. Okay, how about this one: you leave out the emotion of fundraising, and only report facts and figures, no stories on how you’re changing the world. I mean, we see this a lot on the major gifts side, it’s like, well, the emotion side is really in the acquisition cultivation stage, not when they get to be major donors. That’s false. People give out of their heart, from their heart, their emotions, and we have to tap into that no matter if a donor is giving $25 or $25,000 or $25 million. It still is from the heart.
Richard Perry
Yep. People want to solve problems and when you discuss problems on this planet, whether it has to do with people, animals, nature, any of that stuff. It’s an emotional thing. So you got to tell those stories. And sort of a related point is, in some cases, you know, an organization just doesn’t figure out how donors want to be communicated with. So we just do what we want to do.
Jeff Schreifels
Yeah, I know, “Let’s just do what are we want. It doesn’t matter if the donor doesn’t want to be called, I’m going to call them anyway.”
Richard Perry
Right, really?
Jeff Schreifels
Or you have a donor database that doesn’t allow you to create an individual revenue goal or strategic plan for every donor in your portfolio. And you know what, quite honestly, it’s most of donor databases are like this. Yeah, they’re great on if you want to put in “what I did.” But if you want to create a plan that allows you to know what you’re doing with a donor, they’re very limited. This is something we’ve been trying to help solve for a long time. And we wish those folks that are doing that or creating donor databases would understand this.
Richard Perry
Yes, yes. And so instead of looking back and documenting what’s happened in the past, it’s looking forward to what we’re going to do in the forward. Yeah, that’s, that’s a big one. Another one is the whole move of frontline fundraisers or program folks to interact with donors only at events?
Jeff Schreifels
Oh I know, like, we’re afraid to reach out to donors. So like, oh, well, event’s coming up, I’ll interact with donors then. We’re not reaching out, we’re not trying to get in front of them, or Zoom or anything. Because, you know, I’m just not feeling comfortable. It’s amazing how many major gift officers are uncomfortable actually meeting with donors. Another one is, and this is big, is that we don’t allow our program folks to interact with donors. Like somehow, you know, as a major gift officer, I’m the only one or the CEO can only interact with a donor. I don’t want anyone in the organization to do that. So dumb.
Richard Perry
Well, I mean, the program folks have all that information, stories, the frontline stuff. I mean, it’s like, I would put them out there talking to donors all the time. I mean, it’s very, very important. Yeah. Another situation is, and we talked about this, investing heavily in donor acquisition and not having a major, mid, planned giving program. And you don’t do the planned giving thing because it’s too much trouble. So all of these things, I mean, we’ve been pretty negative on this thing so far. But what we’re trying to say is…
Jeff Schreifels
Well, these are these look terrible things non-profits are doing!
Richard Perry
That hurt donors. I know, and so like, don’t do these things. That’s why we’re going through all of this detail.
Jeff Schreifels
Well, let’s talk some more about measuring and analyzing the program. Okay. Let’s talk about some of the stupid things we’re doing on that.
Richard Perry
Well, you see donor retention rate is about 40% overall. And you decide, well, that’s just standard in our business so we just don’t address it, right? Or donor value attrition, like like you’re going to talk about is 40 to 60%. Yeah well, okay, whatever.
Jeff Schreifels
Yeah. So we just say, well, that’s going to be that’s the way it is. So therefore, we’re just going to have to double our acquisition every year because we’re losing all these donors.
Richard Perry
So let’s spend more money to get more donors in to make up for the ones that are lost.
Jeff Schreifels
Now, we now as you talk about, it just sounds utterly ridiculous, right? But it just keeps happening. It’s like, you can see this, all these donors, revenue going away. And like, hmm, maybe we need to invest there to stop them flowing away. No, we got to keep the acquisition thing going. And let’s double down on that thing.
Richard Perry
I wonder why that, I’ve never understood why that happens. Maybe it’s not being able to actually trust that you can actually reduce the flow of donors out of the organization. I don’t know.
Jeff Schreifels
That could be it. I think another as is that, on the direct response side, it’s all about immediate gratification, right? So like, you can spend a million dollars and within 12 months, you should start to see that coming back. Or even like when you do an appea, a cultivation appeal, you know you’re gonna see returns in like, between two to four weeks, you know. So you’re seeing money coming in, and you get this idea that this is how you’re generating the revenue, not thinking that no, it’s really over the long term where you’re going to be generating the net revenue for your organization.
Richard Perry
Yeah, I mean, I would want to secure a hundred donors, and then try to work really hard at keeping as many of those hundred donors as possible versus securing a hundred donors and then saying, okay, I’m gonna lose 40, 50. And I’m so then I’m going to spend more money so that I can kind of creep ahead year to year. Yeah, it’s really interesting. And then the value attrition thing is another thing, and that’s back to the impact, talking about reporting back on impact. If we don’t do that, we’re going to have high value attrition. Why? Because the donor doesn’t know they made a difference. So they go somewhere else to make a difference. Whereas if we invested in reporting back, right, we could actually reduce that. KPIs. Here’s another one. Yeah, the KPIs for the frontline fundraiser focus on face-to-face meetings and the number of phone calls and emails they send. So it focuses on activity versus actually meaningful connections.
Jeff Schreifels
That’s right. I know, I’ve never understood that. When we’re sitting there working with our major gift officers, with our clients, we’re making sure that we have a revenue goal for every donor, and it’s cash flowed. So we know what to expect every month. And then yeah, we’re tracking meaningful connections. Are we having a two-way connection? Is the relationship getting deeper? And, you know, are we actually, is the major gift officer working their plan? Because we know that if they’re working their plan, they make their goals. Right? And the only real way we know we can have those conversations, because we have, we’re working with them every week to determine that. And a lot of times the reason why we have these crazy KPIs like, you know, all those numbers, oh, how many phone calls, how many emails, is because they don’t have a manager really. And so they’re managing at arm’s length. And so the only way they can kind of look to see if they’re actually doing any work is by looking at, you know, these ridiculous KPIs of the number of phone calls or the numbers of activity, or yeah, they’re just measuring activity. They’re not actually sitting down with the major gift officer, and talking about these donors, and wondering how they’re deepening the relationship.
Richard Perry
Which is back to transactional fundraising. Yeah, back to that whole thing of going for the money versus actually going for the relationship. If you were going for the relationship, you’d be measuring the relationship.
Jeff Schreifels
And you’d have deeper conversations with your managers about how you’re building that relationship with a donor.
Richard Perry
You know what’s interesting about this, I mean, as we’re sitting here talking about all this stuff, Jeff, and to kind of get up to a higher level, it’s like, it all, this whole thing that we’ve been talking about about terrible things that non-profits do that hurt donors, has everything to do with just not understanding how fundraising really works. Yeah. And that it’s this very sacred, special thing that happens with another human being, or a group of human beings in an institution is this special thing that happens with them, to join us in doing good on the planet. We just forget about all that. And we’re down this other track in all of these areas, it’s just shocking.
Jeff Schreifels
Well, I think we covered a lot today. And I hope this has helped you identify some areas where you may actually be hurting your donor relationships. And remember, as Richard said, donors are not a means to an end. They’re the lifeblood that’s helping you carry out your mission.
Jeff Schreifels
If you’d like to learn more about this topic area, and how to create a culture that supports and values donors, then download our free white paper on Building a Culture of Philanthropy. Go to VeritusGroup.com. Go to our resource tab in our and then hit “white papers” and there it will be. Building a Culture of Philanthropy. Well, that was a this is good, Richard, we’ve been through a lot of terrible things. So hopefully the folks can avoid those things. Well, thank you for joining us and we’ll see you next time.
Recorded
Thank you for joining us for the Nothing But Major Gifts podcast from Veritus Group. Richard and Jeff also write an ongoing blog that you can subscribe to for free at VeritusGroup.com. Please join us again next time.