Jeff Schreifels
Hey everyone, happy that you could join me today. I've got a great guest today. He's got over 30 years of experience in non-profit leadership and fundraising. T. Clay Buck is the founder and principal of Next River Fundraising Strategies, a consultancy focused on individual giving, strategy, systems, and storytelling. He also teaches fundraising and strategic planning at the University of Nevada, Las Vegas.

and is the co-host of the number one ranked fundraising podcast, Fundraising is Funny. Now, let's get ready for some real talk.

right, Clay, thank you for joining us.

T. Clay Buck
Jeff, thank you for having me. Happy to be here.

Jeff Schreifels
So happy that you're on this podcast with me today. Okay. I've got to ask you, since you're the host of the Fundraising is Funny podcast, I've got to ask you, tell me a funny story for fundraising.

T. Clay Buck
You—there are so many. The best funny stories are the ones we tell about ourselves. And you'll appreciate this with your focus on major gifts. I will try to make a long story short here. I went on a major gift visit. And this was, I mean, this has been a long time coming. You know, the relationship was deep. This was not, you know, like a prospecting visit or the first visit or whatever, right?

Jeff Schreifels
Yeah.

T. Clay Buck
We're coming in for the right here. Here's the proposal. Here's the ask. Met at this woman's office and she had one of these very postmodern mid-century—you remember the clear acrylic chairs? You know, bucket chairs, right? So she had those around her conference table and she says, why don't we sit at the conference table and talk.

Jeff Schreifels
Yeah. Yeah.

T. Clay Buck
Mid-century, these things were made in the 60s, and I'm not necessarily a delicate wilting flower. So we sit down at the table, and before I have fully put my weight into the chair, it shatters. Completely shatters. I fall, of course, in a suit, you know, on my back, on the floor, papers flying everywhere. At least this is how I remember it. And of course, she was very gracious and very kind about the whole thing—“No, don't worry about it, don't worry about it.”

Jeff Schreifels
My gosh.

T. Clay Buck
Etc. And of course, I'm going, okay, these are like antique, original, some major designer, thousands of dollars of chairs. And let's go sit on the sofa. And so we went down to her sofa and we talked and just shards of acrylic all over the office. And I just—there is nothing that will throw you like something like that as you're going into a visit. But it all turned out well.

Jeff Schreifels
Yeah.

T. Clay Buck
Again, the relationship was deep and solid. It secured the gift, thankfully. Of course, she became one of our key volunteers, a leader. But as I was leaving the office, she said, let me have my assistant show you out. And I looked at the assistant and I said, I am so sorry. I am so embarrassed. And the assistant goes, “No, thank you. We hate those chairs.”

Jeff Schreifels
Wow. My gosh. I can just imagine just flat out on the floor. Awful.

T. Clay Buck
Yeah, no. Embarrassed. Yeah, all of it. All of it.

Jeff Schreifels
That's a good one though, I gotta say. That's a great one.

T. Clay Buck
Yeah. I never did check though, and I should have. Like, did she deduct the amount of the chair from her gift?

Jeff Schreifels
Yeah. Oh, so many things to talk about, Clay. I mean, gosh. So let's take advantage of all of your experience that you've had. And I know that much like me, you kind of fell into this, kind of by accident. Weren't looking for it, really. But you've learned some things now over 30-some years.

T. Clay Buck
Yeah. Kind of, yeah. Yeah. A few. Made some mistakes.

Jeff Schreifels
So maybe we're gonna learn from some of those, but what concerns do you have right now in the non-profit space and what concerns you? And then does it remind you of any other times than over that course of 30 years? Or are we in unprecedented times? So I'd love to get your perspective on that.

T. Clay Buck
I mean, wouldn't it be nice to live in precedented times for a change? Like, makes me think of, you know, people talk about being overwhelmed or underwhelmed. Like nobody ever talks about being whelmed. I just like to be whelmed for once, right? I think there are a lot of similarities right now to previous times. And there are very distinct times and periods that I'm thinking of.

You know the stories—you know, fundraised through the turn of the century, through Y2K, through the first dot-com bubble and bust, then into the Great Recession and the economic downturns of 2008, and several tense political years. And the thing is, we have numbers on all this.

We have metrics on all this. We know what donors do during an election, during a federal United States election. We know what donors do during economic downturns and we know what they do during a massive global recession. We now have data on what donors do during a global pandemic. Like we keep learning and we keep leaning back on proven principles to keep us moving forward. We do not have a playbook right now because we have economic—what?

Like, we don't know what the economy is doing and it's up and down and it's sideways. We have, yes, let's just admit political turmoil. We have social issues all over the place. We have global issues. We have the looming possibility of a global—we don't know because there are so many variables. And the biggest variable now, as I see it and as I'm experiencing certainly with the clients that I work with and the communities within our work, we now have this added fear of federal funding. And that grant funding is having a massive impact on the way we look at where we are. We just don't have a playbook for this. There isn't a number we can say, well, when federal funding is threatened and this and this and this, here's the number.

We don't have a playbook for it, which means, right, what do we do? Well, this is the time to lean on the proven principle. This is not the time for—and this is what I'm worried about—in a situation like this, it's easy to jump into gimmicks and tricks and just do anything to scramble for money. But I think this time is calling us to dig deeper into proven relationships. That I think is the true key here. And what I worry about is we'll become so concerned about budgets and revenue that we will become even more transactional than we are.

Jeff Schreifels
Are you seeing any of this happening right now around the transactional side where non-profits are immediately cutting without really spending the time thinking about this?

T. Clay Buck
I haven't, I have not seen a significant level of cuts. Like I'm not hearing any more than usual, you know, cut back on direct mail, cut back on this, don't do this. We do have a tendency, and we are very often driven into it by our well-meaning, big-hearted, but often not as informed as they could be on actual fundraising—

You know a lot of boards and leadership getting panicky and going, focus on wealthy donors, focus on—you need to get more grants. Well now federal grants especially are going to be tough, corporate grants are—think, if founda— I mean all of it is going to be different and tricky. And it's—it's…I don't see anybody—your question was, do you see it affecting? I see it affecting for the organizations that either have already had grants in jeopardy or have potential jeopardy or have grants in question and they're looking at, how do we—what do we do?

We talk so much about diversification of funding. The trouble is, you can't do it when you're in panic mode. So if you ask me what I would say, now is the time. Now is the time to really roll up the sleeves and strategize and create a strong strategy for diversifying funding that is rooted in community, is rooted in individuals, that is rooted in solid mission and donor relations.

Because I do think what we're going to see—and I'm already seeing some of this—I think what we're going to see is more individual donors, particularly at the low and the mid-range, but I think also in major gifts. I think we're going to see more donors drill down on the non-profits that are most important to them. We always find ways to afford things that are important to us, right? I am not giving up my Prime membership. I'm sorry. I'm just not giving up my next-day delivery, you know? So we always find ways to afford things that are important to us. And I think what we're going to see is donors start to go, these are the charities that are most important to me.

Jeff Schreifels
Yeah, yeah. Yeah. Agree.

T. Clay Buck
And less of, I can give 25 here, 50 here, 100 there, right? I think we're gonna see less—the word isn't indiscriminate, but you know what I mean—and more doubling down on, these are the ones that matter the most to me and my family.

Jeff Schreifels
Yes. I think you make a really good point there because this is an opportunity as well for organizations to look at those relationships they have with their donors and the service they're providing their donors and how do they view their donors and really bring up that customer service, that warmth that they need towards their donors, that relationship building, because that will weather—

T. Clay Buck
Correct.

Jeff Schreifels
—the storm and those donors will look at your organization as the top one, the three that they give to, you know.

T. Clay Buck
Mm-hmm. Absolutely. When we acknowledge donors as partners in mission, not as funders of it. Because I think that's the thing that we miss so much. We're not—like, I'd love to, I would love more than anything to change all of our vocabulary. Let's stop asking. Let's stop pitching. Let's start inviting. Let's start offering. Let's start engaging as a partner in the mission. That's what people want.

Jeff Schreifels
Yeah. I love that.

T. Clay Buck
That's what donors want. And I by no means am saying give a donor everything they want, but I am saying donors don't want to buy a gift to fund a mission. They want to be a part of work that matters to them. And that's how they can do it—by giving.

Jeff Schreifels
Yeah. Yeah. All right. So, so far, just to summarize what I'm hearing you say, we're in unprecedented times. However, this is the time to have a clear plan. Go back to what's really the basics of your plan and making sure it's solid. Execute that well.

T. Clay Buck
Yes. Yes. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

Jeff Schreifels
And at the same time, provide outstanding donor service and really look at your donors as part of your mission. And all the other stuff we can't control, right? We can't control what's going on and, you know, world wars and—I mean, those are things that we have no control over. Control what you can control. And those two things are things that we can control.

T. Clay Buck
100%. No. No. Exactly. And to add to that, I think we don't give enough credence to, especially in times like this, the need to control. So when we feel out of control, it is a human tendency—we have to control something, right? And in a way, when a donor is giving to a mission, when they're engaging with a mission, they're saying—there's a part of them at some level that is saying, everything is out of—this is why we saw the increase in pandemic giving, right? Everything is out of control. I don't know what's going on. I can't do anything about it, but I can do this. I can rescue this dog. I can feed this person. I can pay for this kid's education, right? So by controlling what we can control, we're allowing our donors to exert a sense of agency and control in their world by being a part of our mission.

Jeff Schreifels
That's a good word there. Yes. OK, well, now I want to know what are you excited about right now in our industry?

T. Clay Buck
Yeah, I'm hesitating to choose the words carefully because I think this is—it's—I'm excited about it. I'm also cautiously optimistic. We have so much technology and information and data. There is no reason, there's nothing that we can't put some sort of data-informed approach to, which means we know more about why people give, how people give, what this work is, what works, what doesn't. We know so much more now.

I mean, you talk about falling into fundraising, right? When I started, the database of record was the three-by-five cards and the file with the carbon, you know? And if you needed to find a trend in fundraising, you called up AFP and they'd research it and three months later you'd get a photocopy of a photocopy of a photocopy in the mail with some report that was two years old, right? You know, and now it's at our fingertips.

So there's so much that we can be informed of and approach. And with what technology is doing, what it can do for us in terms of efficiency, in terms of connection—it's incredible. Like it's incredible. And then I'm not even going to talk about AI, right?

The caution of it is we have to be discerning about it. Because not every source is a great source. Not every study is a valid study. Not every tech is good tech. So with the blessings of it comes the caution of it. But I'm more excited about what it can do and what we can learn and what we can put into play.

Jeff Schreifels
Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah, I think there is a lot of great things with technology and with taking technology and major gifts, for example. People are like, aren't you worried about AI? And I say, no. I mean, anything that can help the major gift fundraiser develop a relationship with a person, a donor—that's amazing.

T. Clay Buck
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

Jeff Schreifels
Let's, you know, bring it on, right? It's not going to replace—there's always going to be a place for human-to-human contact in fundraising. Because someone who is going to part with a six- or seven-figure gift, you know, it's got to have some trust level with a human being.

T. Clay Buck
100%, yeah. 100%. 100%. Of course. And I do think we're seeing… I do think we're seeing people are much more willing to connect via Zoom virtually. They're much more willing to interact with technology. Like, I'm going to assume that maybe we need fewer visits, maybe depending on the person, you know? And certainly anybody that's done annual fund, direct mail, et cetera, has had that donor that makes the major gift and says, I don't need to see you every year. I don't need—you don't need to come to the house. I don't need to have lunch with you. Just, you know, send me the renewal notice and I'll take care of it. You know, keep me updated, right? Everybody's had that.

And so I think we've got to learn to adjust to what specific donors want. And certainly we are seeing some success with AI-driven—but the thing about AI and the thing about all technology: it's not going to replace this, but it is the person who knows how to use it who is going to replace us.

Jeff Schreifels
Yeah. Yeah. Right. Right. Yes. Agree. Yep. Okay, let's just pretend this is just you and me here and we're just having a conversation, no one else can hear what we're saying. I would always—I love being in this position—but if you don't have to be so polite, I would love to hear what would you say to non-profit leaders right now?

T. Clay Buck
Mm-hmm. Invest in your data. It is the hardest investment to get non-profits to make unless they are the size of non-profit that has an advancement services, a development operation shop—that's, you know… invest in data. Seth Godin talks about the time that we're living in as the connection economy, right? Where who you know and how you know them and how you're connected to them matters more than previous economies of wealth, of tech, et cetera, right?

Well, if that is true, if we accept this connection economy idea, there are some that have said that data is the oil of the connection economy. It is not. It's not the oil. It is the land. It's the ground. It is not something that is extracted and used. It is something that we resource and manage, right, and take care of. Data is not extractive. It is informative.

So the number one investment that non-profits can make is in clean, usable, actual data. Names, addresses, phone numbers, emails, proactively capturing this and being in an omnichannel approach—as simple as getting names right—will have a huge effect. And then number two, I will never understand this: why, when we know for a fact—and we have so many studies that prove it—it is a stronger ROI, it is more cost-effective, and there's a higher return on investment to retain a donor than to acquire a donor… and yet, getting anybody to invest in retention strategies? You don't have time to send thank-you letters, you need to be out in the community visiting people—when you know ten thank-you letters can renew five donors, like the math is there—and getting folks to invest in the physical and the philosophical of donor retention… but it's always “find newer, find better, find richer” when we're losing the people.

Jeff Schreifels
Yeah. I mean, we find this in major gifts too. It's like everyone loves the new thing and they don't like nurturing the old stuff.

T. Clay Buck
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. When a leader—I mean, if it's just you and me talking and you're asking me if I could say anything to, you know, anybody with basically no censor button—I would say, look, just because that person has a wealth score doesn't mean they like you, because guess what? Every other non-profit in your community has the same list. So I am much more interested in you going back to that person that gave you a thousand dollars five years ago and investing in renewing and reinvigorating that relationship because you've looked up their phone number, you've researched them, you've sent them something. They're already there. They're already in your database.

Now, I know there are a lot of non-profits that don't have a database. I get it. Different story. But if you have any significant amount of data or history, your best donors are already in there. And getting anybody to believe that and invest in it is the hardest conversation.

Jeff Schreifels
Yeah. 100%. That's a good point. So if you're a leader out there, please heed Clay's call.

T. Clay Buck
Wait, I thought it was just us. I thought it was just you and me talking.

Jeff Schreifels
Okay, now what about to fundraisers? What would you say to a fundraiser?

T. Clay Buck
This one's hard because I have lived this, right? And I say this from where I am now, acknowledging there's a certain amount of privilege and a certain amount of… I don't know what the—beyond privilege, I don't know what the right word is, but—stand up. Start leading from where you are. You're the expert. Your board is not. Your CEO is not, unless your CEO is also a trained, experienced fundraiser, right? Your leadership—you are the fund— you know how to fundraise.

Your marketing team is not. Your comms team is not. The person who has responsibility for the revenue line is the person that should have all final decisions when it comes to fundraising. And that's everything from brand color to logo to message to mission. And if I could—I want to encourage fundraisers to start stepping into that strength and confidence.

And if you—if I teach the CFRE preparation courses—and one thing in every time I do it, it's less about information and more about confidence. You know this stuff, right? You know. And you might not know, you know, the—right, the impact of a direct mail appeal on the absence or presence of a Johnson box. Like, I mean, come on, this is not the stuff to get worried about. The stuff to get worried about is knowing what's best.

And then when somebody is pushing you into something that you know is not ethical, not right, not effective—as tough as it is—stand. Because you are the advocate for your donors. You are the advocate for your community's presence within the organization. And it's—I know it's hard. I know it's hard, but sometimes we gotta ruffle some feathers.

Jeff Schreifels
That's right. Yes, I love that. Yes, confidence. Going in thinking, hey, I can do this. And a lot of times when we talk to major gift officers, we talk to them about how they create stories in their heads about donors that they just kind of make up because it helps them get through something personally.

T. Clay Buck
Mm-hmm. Sure. Sure.

Jeff Schreifels
Like if they've reached out a couple of times and they didn't hear from a major donor, they'll self-talk and create a story in their head that, the donor doesn't like me, they don't want to hear from me. And they create the story over and over for many people in their portfolio.

T. Clay Buck
Sure. Mm-hmm. Right. Of course. Right. And it's very easy to get into, the economy's bad, we shouldn't be asking right now, nobody has any money—we have to stop these gross assumptions that don't have any basis in fact. If there's not data to support it, then don't believe it. And I know it's hard when you hear “no” ten times a day, when your last five visits have been flops. I get it.

But not everybody is thinking the same way. I don't know about you, Jeff, but the number one thing that I hear from major gift folks—donors aren't returning my calls, donors aren't getting back.

Jeff Schreifels
Yes.

T. Clay Buck
Well, there's a couple of things. One, how many times did you actually call? Like, and there's a lot of, “Well, I sent them an email.” Okay, that's on you, right? You have to pick up the phone. You have to leave voicemails. And that's the other thing: we are all busy and we are all impacted by noise. The fact that they're not returning your calls, the fact that they're not getting back to you, responding to your emails—that's not about you. That's about them.

Remember—I learned this from Mark Phillips at Bluefrog Fundraising in the UK—remember, she is not one of your donors. You're one of her non-profits. You're one of her charities, right? We are not the number one priority. No matter what time it is in our fiscal year, we are not the number one priority on our donors.

Jeff Schreifels
Yes. Mm-hmm. Good stuff. Good stuff. Yeah, I mean… so much, I feel like 70% of the coaching that we do with our fundraisers around the country is around some kind of thing around their lack of confidence or self-talk and something in their head about donors that are not true, that we've got to like, hold on now, this is not true.

T. Clay Buck
Nope. Right. Mm-hmm. Agreed. Agreed.

Jeff Schreifels
You know, you just need to keep at it, being persistent, being patient, and don't give up. And then the stories come back—“You know what, you were right. If I hadn't done this…” You know, have this whole qualification thing like seven to nine touches that came from—you know, to qualify a donor you've got to at least give them seven to nine attempts. And usually—

T. Clay Buck
Yep. Yep.

Jeff Schreifels
—around the fifth attempt, you start seeing a bunch of them qualify. And then we see these fundraisers come up to us and say, “I would have given up at two, but someone coached me to keep going, and I did, and it works.” So like, yeah, that's one of these things I would say to fundraisers: keep at it. You will not believe how it will open up for you.

T. Clay Buck
Right. Right, right, right. Exactly. It was probably about ten, maybe fifteen years into my career that I started measuring touch-to-action ratios—especially for me in direct mail, digital, et cetera. How many touches did it take before someone made a gift?

And, you know, direct mail world, like direct response, a little different, shorter—but on average, for, I don't know, ten different organizations I can name, the average was anywhere from—I remember saying this to a chief development officer, who was like, “That's way too specific”—but it was, on average, anywhere between 3.8 and 4.7 touches before somebody would make a decision. Which informed our strategy so much differently because then the touches, it became a through-line rather than disjointed.

And that's the other thing I see is, the best method for raising money is a conversation. Yes, that's correct. That's absolutely correct. Always will be, right? The one-on-one conversation. But any other methodology is there to mirror that one-on-one conversation.

So if you're sending a letter and then an email and then a text or whatever, and they're all disjointed and say different things, of course it looks different, it feels different. But that through-line of communications—the other thing too is in communication, set up expectations. Set up the next thing, right? “Hey, I'm sending you this email. If I haven't heard from you, I'm gonna call you in a week.” So that we're not surprising people with, “Wait, where did this come from?”

Jeff Schreifels
Right, right, yeah. Okay, last big question for you here. So you've been doing this for a long time, you know? And so I'm sure you've made a few mistakes along the way. And I always think it's helpful to let people know mistakes—we're often, just as human beings, we don't like to admit stuff because it makes us feel like we're weak or something. And I think that's totally bullshit.

And so tell us about some mistakes that you've learned from so that those that are listening, they don't have to make those mistakes.

T. Clay Buck
And not to sound like a broken record, but probably the biggest mistakes I made early on were not investing in and understanding the power of data and the power of infrastructure and how important that is. You know, and sending out and doing phone campaigns and all of that without good information, without names, without… right. So that's one.

And I think the second—is it a mistake? I think maybe this is why I coach and talk and invest so much in it now. If I had—so maybe not a mistake, but if I had it to do over, I would have stepped more into my confidence as a young fundraiser.

If I hadn't been—you know what it is, Jeff, and especially for anybody that starts into this business and into this work coming out of a lower economic status—it is very hard. And when I was coming in, we didn't acknowledge this enough and we didn't train to it enough. It is very hard for— I mean, like me, I came out of acting school, I had no money. I'm wearing my best “filing basement suit” in Chicago going on these major gift visits, right?

And so money as power and position as power—that dynamic was very tough. If I had it to do over again, I would step more into confidence and more into, these people need this mission as much as we need them. As opposed to that sort of, “It's a rich person.” They're just people. They're just people. And honestly, they're as afraid of you as you are of them. You know, we're all human.

And that, I think, is—again, not a mistake, but a lesson that I wish I could tell my younger self.

Jeff Schreifels
Yeah, I love that. I think that's a really important one. Hopefully anyone listening will take that in because that is really true. You know, believe in yourself.

T. Clay Buck
I'm just this close to being the “You kids get off my lawn” guy, you know? I'm just about reaching that stage of life. And so I really hate to say this—it sounds so like what older people said to me when I was younger—there's a lot that younger people coming into this profession have to learn.

There's a lot of things that I wish—certainly with some of our emerging leaders—there's things that I'd love to tell them that, “I know that's what you were taught, but that's not right, that's never what it was meant to be,” right?

The flip side of that is they're bringing in energy and a confidence and an unwillingness to put up with BS that we didn't have. We never thought to question some of those systems. And I'm Gen X—we questioned everything, right? As much as our MTV and Atari, you know, adult brains could handle.

But I do think we need to listen to some of the confidence that's coming in from younger generations and the professionals who just aren't willing to put up with—“I'm not putting up with power dynamics”—you know, good. Like, there are lessons to learn there. There are lessons we can learn from them. There's lessons we can learn from this.

This is—if you were going to ask me the next question, “What do I wish for the sector?”—that's what I wish for the sector. What I wish is more really engaged, open dialogue of us, the older guys, going, “That's good. Let's learn from that.” And also being able to say, “Hey, look, this is where I fell, so let me show you how not to fall there,” which is so hard to hear, right? But I'd love to see much more exchange and dialogue and conversation.

Actually, I'm going to revise my answer from earlier—I think that's what I'm most excited about. I think that's what I'm most excited about: what does this work of generosity and philanthropy look like now? Because I think our donors are different, our fundraisers are different. I think we're on the cusp of some real interesting change and evolution.

Jeff Schreifels
Yes, love that. Good stuff.

T. Clay Buck
I mean, ten years ago, fifteen years ago, Jeff, you and I would have been doing this in a white shirt and a tie and a jacket, you know?

Jeff Schreifels
Well, that's true. Yeah, I barely put this on with a collar. Totally.

T. Clay Buck
I'm wearing—I'm literally wearing basketball shorts and flip-flops. I just put on a collared shirt for the Zoom. Like it's what we do. I mean, look at the exhibit hall at a major conference or at any conference and you see people in jeans and t-shirts. And it used to be, you know, you didn't go to ICON unless you were in a blue suit and banker shoes and all that, right? Just that simple change—that is making philanthropy just more casual—is huge.

Jeff Schreifels
Yep. Mm-hmm. I love that. Very true. Very true. So how do people find you? So tell me about your podcast. Tell me about some of your work. You know, people might want to hang out with you.

T. Clay Buck
So, Lynne Wester and I—the podcast “Fundraising is Funny” came from our joint therapy sessions during the pandemic. They're basically podcast versions of our texts to each other. So, the podcast is available at fundraisingisfunny.com. You can reach us there. We don't have a season three out yet, but all of season one and two are there.

I'm very active on LinkedIn. I'm on all socials as T. Clay Buck. And I'm decent—I'm decent at responding to LinkedIn messages, but you can also reach me at nextriverfundraising.com.

Jeff Schreifels
Yeah you are. Fantastic. Well, hey, thanks for joining me today. It's been great. I love your energy. Thanks for everything you do in our industry and for AFP, for all this— all the coaching you've been doing and training and teaching.

T. Clay Buck
Thank you. It's my pleasure. Well, and I've said this—I've said this to you privately and I'm now honored to get to say to you publicly—how much I have learned from you over the years. And there was a time when I was at a consulting firm that we worked with the same clients, but I don't know that we knew each other—it wasn't joint projects—but we'd hear from clients that they were in your classes or working with you all or whatever, and we were doing a different portion of it.

So I have learned a great deal from you all over the years. I have read your book. I read your blogs, your posts. You are probably on my top list of thought leaders that I refer to. So thank you for what you put out in the sector and for letting me be a part of this today.

Jeff Schreifels
That's very kind of you. Absolutely. Thank you so much. Hey everyone, thanks for joining us and we'll see you next time.