When you’re looking for your next fundraising position, how do you evaluate which opportunities are most aligned with your professional goals? What questions should you ask in your conversations with hiring managers to learn more about their culture and evaluate whether the role is a good fit?
In this podcast episode, Karen and Matt are joined by special guest Paul Towne, VP of Executive Search with Cooper Coleman. As a search consultant who works exclusively with non-profit and social impact organizations, Paul has extensive knowledge about how to interview for the right roles and identify which opportunities will be the best fit for you.
We hope this conversation gives you some helpful ideas and tools to use when you’re interviewing for your next fundraising role!
Show Highlights: In this episode, you’ll learn about…
- Factors impacting the job-hunting landscape across the non-profit sector
- How to identify roles that will be the best fit for you
- What candidates should look for when interviewing at a non-profit
- Questions to ask that will help you learn more about an organization’s culture
Veritus Group is passionate about partnering with you and your organization throughout your fundraising journey. We believe that the key to transformative fundraising is a disciplined system and structure, trusted accountability, persistence, and a bit of fun. We specialize in mid-level fundraising, major gifts, and planned giving, helping our clients to develop compelling donor offers and to focus on strategic leadership and organizational development. You can learn more about how we can partner with you at www.VeritusGroup.com.
Additional Resources:
- [Contact] Send a note to Paul at Cooper Coleman
- [Join our Community] Sign up here to join the Veritus Community Hub
- [Blog] Job Hunting? 10 Warning Signs When You’re Interviewing at a Non-Profit
- [Free Resource] Interview Guide: Recommended Questions
Read the Full Transcript of This Podcast Episode Here:
Jeff Schreifels
There may be a lot of job openings in fundraising right now, but not every opportunity is going to be the right fit for you. How should you evaluate a potential organization? What questions should you ask in an interview? For today’s episode, I’m handing things off to my team members Karen Kendrick and Matt Gill. They’ll be speaking with Paul Towne, Vice President of Executive Search with Cooper Coleman, and sharing some tips for how you can find the right non-profit job this year.
Recorded
Welcome to the Nothing But Major Gifts podcast from Veritus Group featuring Richard Perry and Jeff Schreifels. Twice a month, we bring you the latest and best thinking about major gift fundraising so you can develop authentic relationships with your major donors. Here are your hosts, Richard and Jeff.
Karen Kendrick
Welcome to today’s podcast. I’m Karen Kendrick, and I’m taking over the podcast today from Jeff and Richard who have the day off. One of the topics we’ve heard constantly about this past year is how hard it is to find and retain good talent. We also heard from a lot of you fundraisers about how hard it was to find the right job. We got questions like, “What do I look for when I’m interviewing?” “What questions should I ask?” “How can I tell if they really do have the culture they say they do?” So to help you find the right job if you’re looking for a new position, or looking to join the non-profit sector this year, I’ve invited two great guests for today’s episode. Paul Towne is VP of Executive Search at Cooper Coleman, a full service recruiting and consulting firm. And Matt Gill is a Client Experience Leader here at Veritus Group and is a Naval Officer and has extensive experience as a fundraiser for Greater Twin Cities United Way, and American Red Cross. Welcome to both of you. And let’s do a quick little hello, starting with you, Paul.
Paul Towne
Thanks so much, Karen. It’s a pleasure to join the Veritus team again for one of these sessions. I always enjoy it and I’m looking forward to this conversation very much. Thanks.
Matt Gill
Hey, so happy to be here and just excited to continue my journey with Veritus, which started ages ago when I was a client and now being on this side, being able to coach people on a journey that was so impactful for me in a career that’s so important in this world. I’m just thrilled to be here. Thank you.
Karen Kendrick
Thank you. Paul, start us out today and talk a little bit about job hunting. What’s the landscape right now? What trends are you seeing?
Paul Towne
Sure, I’m happy to. So I think the biggest headline to share is that fundraisers and development professionals are still very much in demand. That has not changed. The pandemic has made our jobs more challenging. And so whether it’s building out teams, or replacing positions for folks that have decided to make a shift in their career, there’s a lot of jobs open. And I would say particularly in higher education. And during a time of uncertainty for a number of non-profits due to some of the economic challenges and increased service demands on non-profits, you can find that higher education jobs often can offer a lot more stability, they can offer opportunities for professional development and career growth, as well as education benefits. So if you’re thinking about pursuing that master’s degree that you put on hold, if you get a job in higher education, you might be able to do that at no cost or a reduced cost. So those are some things to think about. If you’re making a change, higher education could be something to consider.
Paul Towne
The other thing that I would say, you’ve probably seen this on LinkedIn or in the news, that remote and hybrid work continues to evolve. And so, you know, I’ve seen reports that say that fully remote is dead. I don’t think that’s the case. But I do think it’s definitely changing. And so one thing that I would recommend for candidates, as you’re having conversations with organizations and hiring managers, is to get some clarity on what the organization’s short and long-term goals are with regard to return to office. So, for example, particularly if a position is hybrid, and let’s say maybe right now, it’s two days a week in the office, what are their plans in terms of long-term to have people return to the office full time? And I think some organizations are on that path. Some organizations are on different paths. But I think having an open and transparent conversation will ensure that you’re not getting into a situation where… what the organization is requiring isn’t going to meet your needs. So that’s an important thing to think about.
Paul Towne
Another thing that I would say is that if you’re applying for remote positions, keep in mind that that will mean that you’re not only just competing with the people in your local area, you’re competing with anyone with internet access, by and large. And I would take that back a little bit. I’m exaggerating just slightly. I think, primarily, it’s going to be anyone with internet access in the US. But you never know, they might be open to candidates outside the US. And so in that instance, you may need to work a little bit harder to get your credentials and your application to stand out. And so one way I’ve seen people be successful in doing that, is to take the time to get to know the organization and do that by reaching out to other folks at the organization. It might not have to be the hiring manager. Some of those hiring managers may say, “From an equity standpoint, I can’t have a conversation with you outside of the interview process.” And just respect that. But you could reach out to other people at the organization that are in similar roles to the one that you’re seeking, or even different roles. You know, talk to someone on the programs team and get some information from them in terms of what the culture is like, you know. “Do you enjoy your time there?”
Paul Towne
Some people can be a little bit hesitant to reach out with a cold request. But what I’ll say is that one of the reasons that we all work in this space, and I worked for non-profits for over 20 years, is that it tends to be a much more open and collegial kind of environment. And so I think, as long as you reach out with a lot of kindness and respect, and also maybe even a little flattery; you know, “I saw this article that you posted, I was really inspired by it, I’d love to hear more about your thoughts on X.” You know, most people are going to be responsive to that. So again, sort of laying that groundwork, doing your discovery, building relationships at an organization where they might be able to refer you is a way to get your application to stand out from the pile.
Karen Kendrick
Wow, that was rich with so much! Never thought of reaching out to other people and building those relationships. They could probably be really… develop a really cool relationship; they may be helping you get a job there, which is a really unique idea. So basically, if I’m wanting to be totally working from home, then it’s just a preference versus like, I really have to have that. But I’m hearing you say, I might want to think about that versus a job that I’m really going to love and enjoy with a great culture. There may be reasons why I would want to be able to do a hybrid model and be open to that and consider it at this point.
Paul Towne
Yeah.
Karen Kendrick
So Matt, I know that our clients, sometimes we get involved as coaches helping them in their job interview process. I did that years ago. I would be like the canary in the mine. I’d just have a quick conversation when the person had an in-person interview, and then I’d be like, “Well, this was… I felt this or I felt that,” and they’d be like, “Oh, that’s so interesting.” So we help out at times in that process. So what are some things that we’re seeing at Veritus as we help out with that interview process?
Matt Gill
Yes, my colleagues and I will definitely kind of supplement; try and speak into that process, help as much as we can, providing additional insight. Especially, you know, we’ve found that there’s a lot of value in… rather than being in the main group interview along with everyone else, you know, maybe having an individual phone call with that candidate, and just seeing how they are one-on-one on the phone. That’s as it happens, one of the main things you spend your time on as a fundraiser, and so spending some time in those phone conversations allows us to really speak into that component of their candidacy.
Matt Gill
Now, what we’re seeing though, you know, the candidates that are out there looking for jobs, and there are plenty of candidates, making the move as we’re doing a lot of rethinking our relationship with work. That’s continuing. That’s a big trend, I think, across the industry and across outside the non-profit industry as well. But, you know, candidates are looking for flexibility, looking for trust, looking for situations where they’re supported, where they’re set up to succeed. Of course, the work from home hybrid models, those situations, that’s a component of that. I think that remains a desire for a lot of folks and you know, as fundraisers who are out on the road, who are out with donors, who are, you know, getting in front of people, that kind of flexibility is important. That kind of trust is important. And you don’t want to be in a situation where you have to show your face in the office for a certain number of hours every day because that actually hinders your ability to do a good job as a fundraiser. But we also find people don’t feel like they need to settle for a situation where they don’t have those elements and they don’t feel like they need to settle for a job that they’re interviewing for. That doesn’t present them with a compelling reason to either leave their situation or join your team.
Matt Gill
And, you know, this isn’t a new observation, but it remains true, you know, people leave their manager, they don’t leave the organization. I think that’s something that has been true for years and remains true and something that we want to continue to flood, stop the, you know, successful candidates in these processes that we’re finding. They show a lot of the same characteristics that make a good fundraiser. So they show curiosity in the interview process. And before the interview process and their ability to research, they show an ability to quickly synthesize information. And so there’s ways of bringing this out in the interview process. And if you’re listening to this, and you’re wondering, “Am I the kind of person that can synthesize information?” Just listen to this, when you’re done listening to the podcast, wait 10-15 minutes, and maybe write down two or three highlights that you remember from the podcast. That will help you answer that question. And you know, it kind of flexes those muscles for you.
Matt Gill
Sense of humor, you know, we spend a lot of time as fundraisers trying to get people to like us. And that’s, you know, so that element of the interview ought to come naturally to successful candidates. And this zoom element. This sort of remote element adds a layer. Just some comedy in some ways where, you know, if the tech doesn’t work, and it throws everybody off, or if the tech doesn’t work, and the candidate doesn’t know, but all the other people in the interview process do. You know, you feel just terrible for someone who went through something great. And you only heard every third word or something. But there was a story, my colleague told me of someone who they kind of sent some questions in advance, and the candidate came prepared, but they came so prepared that they had written out answers. And they were clearly reading the answers off of a script on a different screen. And, oh, man, and so it’s like they had put it in a lot of thought and preparation. So that’s great. But whether or not they had written out a good answer was completely lost by the fact that they weren’t present in the interview. And you know, there was no shot there. That shot all those other elements in the foot as they did that. So don’t do that, you know?
Paul Towne
Yeah, I would definitely agree with that. I’ve seen some candidates that have taken that approach. And it’s very distracting, you know, for interviewers. One piece of advice that I give candidates is, it’s perfectly fine to write a couple of keywords on a piece of paper that are going to remind you what you want to say, but won’t lead to you reading your remarks. And so I even say for in-person interviews, you know, it’s really, it shows you take a lot more interest if you take notes during the interview. And so you bring your notebook and in the margins, you have a couple of words of things that you want to make sure that you cover. That’s perfectly acceptable. And I think if that will help keep you on track, do that. But don’t write things out word for word. That’s not in anyone’s favor.
Karen Kendrick
Thank you. Those are great examples. So sometimes as fundraisers, I’m going to have you talk about this, Matt, we feel pressure to change jobs, right? It’s like, well, “I need to advance my career. I need to make more money.” For all kinds of reasons, we feel like we need to be changing our position or advancing. So talk a little bit about like, how do we figure out if we should? What’s a good fit? How do we figure out how to maneuver all that desire into something that’s really going to work for us?
Matt Gill
Yeah, I think we, you know, we want to spend a lot of time in self-reflection as we’re considering really important moves like this. Anytime you change a job, it’s a big deal. There’s a lot of risk. And there’s also some risk in staying where you are, right? And so, do some self-reflection: “Where do I want to go? What do I love about this work? What do I want out of my career? What are my long term career aspirations? What makes me happy?” You know, we love to work hard; am I also able to work joyfully? So doing that self-reflection on, you know, “What motivates me? What gets me out of bed? What makes me smile, when I think about this work? What makes me excited that it’s Monday? And, you know, asking those questions, “Is this position going to give me what I want? Is this going to give me the kind of life that I want to lead? Is this going to take me in the directions I want to go? Is this going to fill my cup? And so doing that self-reflection to answer those questions will help you, you know, look under the surface of things like titles or the salary that seems attractive.
Matt Gill
Not all titles are created equal. I was looking for a position and came across a VP of Advancement. I started asking some questions: “So tell me about the team.” And they’re like, “Team? No, you’d be one of one.” Alright, so that wasn’t what I was looking for, but I had known that about myself and just sort of made that clear in the process. But if I hadn’t asked that question, I might have gotten a little bit too far down the process, and wasted a lot of people’s time.
Matt Gill
You know, we talked a little bit earlier about rethinking our relationship with work. Sort of what if we thought about our relationship with work, like a relationship? You know? And apply some of that relationship advice and relationship practices that we got, you know, through our travels with other people in the world; through our premarital counseling or whatever. You know, if you aren’t happy, why aren’t you happy? You know, are there ways you can make it clear to your supervisor? Or are there things you can do to make the situation you’re in better, right? What have you done? What part of this process do you own? And if you can answer that question, then you’ll know what you’re bringing to the next job. Because if you don’t know that, then it might be that the part of the job that’s really bothering you is something that is largely on you, and you’re going to bring that into the next situation. So a lot of self-reflection. We talked about a number of questions you can ask yourself: “Am I fleeing from something? Am I going to something that’s too good to pass up?” You know, these are questions that… there’s no right or wrong answer to them. But being honest with yourself about where you are in your situation and where you need to be. That’s going to help a lot.
Karen Kendrick
Those are really helpful questions. I could see how, maybe I’m feeling really, really overwhelmed and burned out. And first of all, I haven’t sat down with my boss and outlined the hours I’m spending and have planned for how I could focus more on donors and less on the 16 meetings they have me in every week. And maybe I need some help with organizing. That’s my thing I’m always learning. So what is my role in that? What can I actually talk to my boss about in a way that’s proactive, that has possible solutions to discuss? And if I’ve done all of that, then I’m in a better position to say, “Yeah, this isn’t the right fit for me.” That’s really helpful.
Paul Towne
Yeah, I totally agree. And one thing that I would add, from a recruiter’s standpoint is, if you are fleeing a job, to use Matt’s words, you know, that’s perfectly fine. It’s acceptable. Everyone gets into a situation. If you haven’t had a job yet where you needed to just get out, it’s going to happen. It’s a pretty normal thing. And so what I would recommend is, if you’re interviewing with another organization, be honest about why you’re leaving, but be positive and constructive as much as possible. So rather than bashing an organization, or even worse bashing an individual, because you never never know if the person you’re interviewing with is best friends with them on the side. No, be constructive about why you were leaving. And you can talk about the challenges that you faced in that role. But put a positive spin on to say, “Despite X, Y, and Z challenges, I was able to accomplish A, B and C. And then also talk about what you learned through the situation. Again, it’s all about growth. And so I think by putting a positive spin on it, it can really take a different tone.
Paul Towne
Another thing that I could recommend, as you’re thinking about advancing in your career, or let’s say you’re not fleeing a job, you’re just looking for an opportunity to upskill. You know, think about your career from a skills or asset-based approach. You know, think about what pieces of experience you might be missing, and how you could go about gaining those in a new role. So for example, let’s say that you’re currently a Director of Development, but you only work with individuals and your goal is to be a Chief Development Officer one day. Most organizations have partnerships with foundations or partnerships with corporations. Is there an opportunity to take on a role that will give you some exposure to those elements? So I think that can be really valuable.
Paul Towne
Another thing that I would share is that beyond just sort of your standard development skills, generalist skills are really in demand. And I’m hearing clients say a lot more, “I want a development professional who understands finance, who understands once a grant is received, you know, whether that organization does subgranting that to their organizations or how it’s spent down and applied to the program’s team. Having a base-level understanding of how that works is a really valuable asset to an organization. So I would say, some skills you might want to think about developing outside of your standard development skills would be finance, operations, then obviously management if you’re looking to advance. So those are just some other things you might want to keep in mind.
Karen Kendrick
And how brilliant to think about that, and do it prior to getting a position that requires that. So you’re not avoiding things, maybe that would be a great fit for you. And you’re coming in strong having some of those skills developed. So what things do we think about Paul, as candidates, looking for a job in the interview process? Give us some tips. You’re doing this every day; it’s so helpful.
Paul Towne
Yeah, so and I’ll also say, I was a fundraiser for 20 years. So besides being a recruiter, I’ve been in your shoes on both sides of this equation. So I think one thing that organizations are looking for, and will till probably the end of time, is a passion for the work. You know, people deliberately choose non-profit jobs because they are passionate about a mission. And so one thing that I’ll recommend, I get a lot of questions about cover letters, and we’ll probably talk about them a couple of times during the course of this, but, you know, there’s a case to say that they are obsolete at this point. But I would push back on that and say that cover letters are a great opportunity for you to explain your why, especially if you’re moving from one impact area to another. So let’s say that you’ve always worked in conservation, and you really want to get into childhood education. That’s a big shift. And so being able to explain why you want to make that shift, what in your life has drawn you to this new impact area. So I think that’s a really valuable thing that you can do in your cover letter. And then obviously, if you go through the interview process, you’re going to want to reiterate, you know why that’s something that’s meaningful to you.
Paul Towne
Another thing that I would say is spend some time proactively doing some research on the organization. Spend some time getting to know the organization’s 990s. Look at maybe a period of, with COVID being obviously an outlier for most organizations, so maybe five years back. What did the organization’s funding look like over that five years? Are they on an upswing? Are they on a downswing? Was there a year that was really out of whack, in terms of their revenue? Look at their annual reports, if they have those available. Obviously, take a look at their website. Spend some time getting to know that and jot down questions that you have.
Paul Towne
And what I would also say is, don’t be afraid to ask the hard questions. So, you know, if an organization went from being an $8 million dollar organization to being a $4 million organization, that’s something you would want to know about, you know. And so I think leaning into those kinds of questions, and coming prepared will show that you’ve done your homework, just like you would do your homework if you’re meeting with a donor. And so again, it’s like demonstrating in a different way that you take the initiative to go the extra mile to get the information that you need.
Paul Towne
Another thing that I would say, is, as you’re interviewing, and let’s say you’re meeting with the panel, because non-profit’s love to do a panel interview, spend some time writing a question, and jotting it even on your notebook that you bring in, or at least a couple words, for each and every individual interviewer. So for example, let’s say you’re interviewing for a Director of Development position, and you’re meeting with a Director of Programs. Ask that person, you know, where have you seen fundraising success with your program? How do you like to work with a development team? Those kinds of things will show that, again, you’ve done your homework. You understand their role. And you also understand that the development function is not an island. You know, you have to play well with all the different teams. And so I think that can be really beneficial.
Paul Towne
And then last, but certainly not least, always remember that while you’re going through an interview process, and you’re being evaluated for this new position, you’re also interviewing the organization, and you need to listen to the feedback that you’re getting. You just take it all in and sort of sit on it and think about it like, “Is this the kind of thing that I want to get into?” One thing that I always say is every organization and every opportunity has both challenges and opportunities. And so I think what I always encourage my candidates to say is, “Are these opportunities and challenges that get me excited? Or are these the ones where I’ve experienced it at three other jobs, and I just want to run for the hills?” And so the more information that you can get, as you go through that process, it will help you to decide. Not only is the organization deciding if you’re the right person, but is this the right opportunity for you?
Karen Kendrick
Well, it’s clicking in my brain, just how significantly this whole process matches your skills as a fundraiser. How ideal for us, right? How to research, how to have great questions, be curious, show up with presence, know how to connect with people. Whether you’re introvert/extrovert, or whatever personality, can you connect? Can you create some sense of presence and knowledge? So this is really helpful. Thank you all.
Karen Kendrick
All right. So continuing, Matt, how do we get clear on the reality of the position? Is this really what I think it is? Is it going to be the right match? How do we do that?
Matt Gill
Yeah, I mean, I think we can ask some pretty pointed and detailed questions and A. that’ll show things like our curiosity and our ability to research, you know, our grasp of the craft. So asking questions about, “Hey, you know, what’s the caseload of donors that I am going to be taking over? Am I coming behind a development officer who recently left and had a good relationship with those donors? Are those donors engaged in the mission? Or, you know, did the development officer leave a year ago, and that caseload has been plucked of all the donors that you can’t leave alone for a year, and all the donors that remain are donors that can be left alone for a year?” Right? Those kinds of questions will give you some information about not only how well you are set up to succeed in the role, but also, you know, the kind of organization’s culture of philanthropy. So what’s the story with these donors? You know, what are the expectations? You know? How engaged are the donors? What’s the relationship that all have with the executive director or the CEO? What’s the relationship all have with the board? You know, what’s the development team’s relationship with the program team or the marketing team? Or, you know, will I have access to the resources I need to be able to bring these donors along, right? To create the touch points that I need to create? To give them the invitations? To learn more, and to grow in their relationship with this organization?
Matt Gill
I worked with an organization not long ago, where they brought on somebody as a major gift officer. And in the hiring process, they talked a lot about kind of why they wanted to grow the donor pool, and they wanted to bring more friends along, they want to bring more friends in. And this individual had a fair number of professional connections that they talked up in their interview and then came on board as a major gift officer to find that there isn’t a caseload for them. They were like “Okay, so great, what are you going to do to bring your friends along?” And so that was the position; it was sort of to go out and prospect and get to know friends of friends, and maybe some of them will want to be excited about our organization, and then become donors. And I think there may be a role for a person like that on the development team. That may be a strategy that’s worth pursuing in its place, but it’s not a major gift officer role. And certainly not as a full-time gig.
Matt Gill
And so it was very clear, almost from the outset, that this individual was not set up to succeed. And ultimately, I mean, you know, it was clear that they… it ended up being true that they did not succeed in that role. But you know, that kind of thing could have been avoided with enough questions, and enough, kind of not just asking the one, but kind of asking the follow-up question, understanding that the people that we’re interviewing with happen to be quite skilled at presenting their organization in a positive light and, you know, and bringing people along and and connecting with people you know, the people that are interviewing for these positions tend to also be quite skilled fundraisers. And so as a candidate, understanding that that’s at play and and still being insistent to ask those questions.
Karen Kendrick
You know, I’m thinking if I’m someone looking for candidates and I can’t find a great fundraiser like, “What in my system is not supporting people’s success?” I need to ask myself some really good questions and how am I presenting that and setting that up so they can come in with competence?
Karen Kendrick
Well, what about culture? That’s a whole nother piece. I love… that was really helpful Matt around caseload and donors and setup. But culture fit is incredibly important. How do I figure that out? In an interview, Paul?
Paul Towne
Yeah. Well, first off, I think the website is a wealth of information. You know, how much detail do they provide around the employees that work there? Did employees’ bios include hobbies? Or is it just very professional? I think you can read between the lines sometimes there. But I think I would also ask questions related to strategic decision making. So one thing that I always like to know is, who in the organization, probably first and foremost, is involved in setting goals for fundraising? I don’t know about you, but I’ve worked for organizations where I’ve come in, and they’ve said, “Okay, you know, next year, we’re going to be responsible for $5 million.” And my first question is, how did you get to that number? Like, is there evidence to suggest that that’s achievable? Like, do we have, you know, the right donor information in our database to suggest that that’s going to be doable? So that’s one thing. But I also think, who is involved in strategic planning, you know? Is it something that happens sort of behind closed doors? Or is there an opportunity for staff to participate in that? Again, you know, having experience doing fundraising strategy, and strategic planning more broadly, is going to help advance your career in general. And so I think asking questions about that can be really valuable.
Paul Towne
I also think understanding, you know, how stable is the development team? And so again, I would recommend first going to the website. If they have a list of all their employees, taking that then going to LinkedIn and saying, you know, Joe Smith has been in his position for 10 years, but has been promoted three times. That’s going to tell you something that might not necessarily be on the website. And just say that Joe is the Vice President of Development. But you can see that he started off as a manager and worked his way up. And so you’ll see that there is an opportunity for someone to advance. And so for me, it’s almost bonus points for a candidate to come in to say, I saw that Joe started off at this level and advanced. And that’s something that’s really important to me, because it shows that you went beyond the expected, of just going to the website to say, I’ve observed this. And so that can be really valuable. And if Joe’s in that interview, and you get to say kudos to you, Joe, that’s even better. You’re complimenting him or her on that journey. So I think that can be really valuable.
Paul Towne
Other questions that you can ask, you know, what opportunities are there for professional development? And we all know that non-profit budgets are tight. And so there might not be a lot of external professional development opportunities. But, you know, I’ve known organizations with very, you know, restrictive budgets, who, once a month, invite their staff to come and participate or present on something that’s just really, they’re really passionate about. So it could be about cooking, it could be about, you know, and I think those things contribute to an organization’s culture, almost as much as, or even sometimes more than, those external opportunities.
Paul Towne
Another thing that I think could be valuable is asking about either a formal or informal mentor program. So for example, some organizations when they have a new development person come in, they will assign them a mentor, even that onboarding buddy. And I think, you know, again, that’s an intentional decision the organization has made to become more of a people-first organization. So those are some things that I think, you know, can be really helpful for you to get a sense of. Some of those intangibles that might not be included in the job description or the prospectus, but are going to really influence you know, your experience within an organization.
Matt Gill
I’d like to build on that. There’s two two things you said, Paul, that were just phenomenal. That onboarding buddy, you know, in the Navy we call them the dive buddy, you know, someone that you are responsible for, is responsible for you, and it’s kind of your go-to. It’s not your manager. You can ask your dumb questions. And that does not cost the organization a dime. Right? Or, you know, that’s something that is a really good move for the organization. And you know, something you can ask about, you mentioned earlier that the value, the power of having an informational interview with someone who’s not the hiring manager, and these are, you can assess a lot of this or ask some of these questions here in advance. That was one of the things that the Navy I think did really well when I was transitioning from active duty into the reserves, they said, “Look, Matt, go and talk to everyone that you possibly can. Anyone that will give you… ask for 20 minutes and some advice.” You know, that ended up serving me extremely well. Not just in that initial transition off of active duty, but throughout the last number of years as I’ve grown in my career. So I definitely just want to reiterate that.
Karen Kendrick
I’m sure people are listening and just typing as fast as they can with all these great ideas. So red flags, Paul. What are the red flags I should look for?
Paul Towne
Where do I begin? I think first and foremost, there’s a couple things that you’ll want to look at. And it might be a tough conversation to have. But, you know, understanding the expectations around fundraising, especially for the first year. To go back to what Matt said, and he described it as caseload but like, what does the pipeline look like? You know, what stages are these candidates? Are these potential donors or donors in? And how have they been cultivated? How have they been stewarded? Like, what does that look like? Because it’s going to be a very different situation, if you have a gap, when there was no development person, instead of they haven’t been reached out to in over a year, or maybe even longer. So I think, if you’re just presented with, “Our fundraising goal is $5 million for next year,” which first of all, that would be a red flag in and of itself in my book. But I think, you know, understanding goals, where they came from, as well as what the current state of the pipeline looks like is really valuable information to have.
Paul Towne
The other thing that I would say, is, if they’re posting from multiple development positions, that could be a red flag. I’m not going to say that it is necessarily because I’ve seen organizations that have added brand new programs, and they need an entirely new, you know, unit within the fundraising team to fundraise specifically for those new programs. And so that’s a question… you might be able to discern some of that from the research that you do in advance, but also feel free to ask that, you know. I always ask, and I encourage candidates to ask when they interview for a job, you know, “What’s the status of the person that was in this position before? Like, did they leave? Did they leave on good terms? Did they provide any kind of transition materials for the next person that can be really valuable information to have?” And again, if they left on bad terms, it doesn’t necessarily mean it’s a red flag, but it’s just more information for you to have because again, I want to go back to what I said before, every job, every organization, has opportunities and challenges. Are they the ones that you’re willing to take on and want and are excited to take on? Or are they ones where, you know, you just, it’s time to focus on something else? So I think those are some things that you could look for that might be helpful.
Karen Kendrick
But to take that a little further, Paul, talk about declining a job during the interview process. Is that a good thing? Or a bad thing? Is that going to create a bad situation for me in the future? How do I do that?
Paul Towne
That’s an excellent question. I get asked that all the time by candidates. And the first thing that I will say is that times have changed a lot. So I often share this with candidates. I’ll share it with you all. You know, my mother worked as an operating room nurse for 40 years in the same hospital. And so when I was early on in my career, and I was looking to advance, and sometimes you can’t advance in an organization, because there are just not the opportunities and you want to grow. And so I’d be interviewing for these new jobs. And my mom would say, “Well, of course, you’re going to take it if you’re offered it.” And so that was my mindset, you know, for a number of years, because that was what I learned. And I think now things are different. One, the market is very competitive. And two, you have to think about the impact of taking a position that you’re not going to be excited about. So you know, it’s really hard to make an ask if you’re not passionate about your job, or if you don’t feel fully supported. And relationships are the currency of fundraisers. And so if there’s constant turnover of a development person, that’s going to really hurt the relationships. And so that’s going to hurt the organization.
Paul Towne
But now I’ll put this back on you as the candidate. If you make a misstep, and it might not be your fault. And, you know, sometimes you just don’t have all the information. It’s way better if you’re seeing all the red flags ahead of time to just say and be super transparent, positive, appreciative, thoughtful, but I think it’s best to just have a very transparent conversation and share your rationale. Say, you know, I’ve really evaluated/I’ve taken the time… also take a few days. That’s one thing I think a lot of candidates don’t do. I have a candidate for a position right now who has been offered a position at another organization, and is just being considered for a position that we’re searching for. And I said, you know, ask for a week. They took how many weeks to get back to you? If they’re really interested in you, they’ll give you a week, and you can let them know I’m being considered for this other position. And I want to be thoughtful and pick the position that makes more sense for me. And so I think that that transparency, by and large, is really respected in this day and age. I think there’s another mindset that says, keep your cards close to the vest and don’t share that information. And that might be the case in certain circumstances. But for me, I think honesty and transparency is the best policy. And I think, you know, if you get into a situation where it becomes high pressure, that’s also a piece of information. It could be a yellow flag or a red flag to say, you know, why is there so much pressure here? I’m trying to make a decision that’s going to work for me and work best for the organization. So that’s, I think one thing to sort of think about.
Paul Towne
And then the other thing that I would say is ask for what you need. So, for example, let’s say you’re going through the interview process, and you haven’t decided if you’re going to decline it because you feel like you haven’t met enough people. Yeah, some interview processes, they have you meet with the hiring manager, maybe you meet with the HR rep, and then the hiring manager, and then they make you an offer. Well, are you going to be spending all your time with the hiring manager? Probably not. If you’re going to be managing a team, do you have a chance to meet the people that are gonna be reporting to you? If you’re assigned to a particular program, and you’re gonna be attached at the hip with this program person, wouldn’t you want to spend some time with them? And so I’ve certainly during interview processes, said, “You know, I’m really excited about this. But having a really collaborative and healthy working relationship with key stakeholders is super important to me being successful. And so before I can make a decision, it would be really valuable for me to have this information.” So I would say before you decide, if you know, you know. Like, just decline, be graceful, be thoughtful, don’t burn any bridges. But if you’re still not sure, it’s totally fine. And people should and most times will respect your request for more information, as part of your discovery process.
Karen Kendrick
This is so grown up and authentic. Really! Instead of being like, “Well, I need more time because I have another thing I’m thinking of,” when you really don’t. So you can manipulate some, you know, increase in revenue. Like say, “No, I really want to be thoughtful.” That is incredible. This is meaningful and beautiful, even in the process, and listening to both of you share about this. So if I’m in this process, and it’s not feeling meaningful and beautiful, it’s feeling discouraging and overwhelming and frustrating, what are some words of wisdom, you have to close this out here with Matt?
Matt Gill
Oh, it can sometimes feel discouraging. And I know that from my own experience, I think I’m seeing some nodding on here from everyone. Probably all of you listening, you’re like, “Oh boy, isn’t it?” And many of you listening are going through it right now. And you’re really feeling that discouragement and you’re hearing that, oh boy, yes, I’m in such demand, why can’t I land a job? You know, like, “Why am I always number two in the process; that they go with somebody else?” You know, just all the things. Asking, you know, “If I’m not that good at this process, am I even good at being a fundraiser?” There’s a lot of thoughts that go through your mind. Just that… that’s reality. It’s discouraging. It can take a long time. Sometimes it can take a lot longer than you want it to sometimes. And just naming that and just noticing and acknowledging, like “Yes, these are feelings that come up in this process.”
Matt Gill
And it’s a big deal right? It’s a relationship and you know, the most popular songs are love songs and breakup songs. I mean, they’re like, it’s a big deal. Thinking about what our job is and especially in you know, American culture, it’s a huge component of our identity for better or worse. But yeah, I mean, these feelings are going to be big. And so just acknowledging that. Noticing that. Knowing how those feelings show up for you and your body and just kind of reflecting on what kind of decisions am I making? And what are those decisions based on, right? So, in this process, you know, encouragement just that you keep going, right? Keep going, keep learning, lean into every opportunity as a growth opportunity to add to your skillset. Every interview you have is an opportunity to get better at interviewing. You can, you know, spend time with your network, spend time getting to know lots of people. It’s a grind to go and call everybody you know, and sit down and have coffee and ask them for 20 minutes and some advice or to you know, to try and ask them for introductions to someone else. And, but it’s also like, kind of a lot of fun to do that. And you kind of go broke having coffee, buying coffee, but you know, it’s the kind of… embrace that as a time that’s really unique in your journey. And, you know, throughout the hiring process, the interviewing process, if they’re willing to… I mean, always ask for feedback. And then take that feedback with a growth mindset. Right? So they, if they’re willing to give you a reason why they went with another candidate and something that they saw in you that you could get better at. That’s huge. That’s so valuable. Take that and, you know, kind of swallow back that initial response and mull on that and take it on board and appreciate that as a gift. But keep going y’all. Keep going.
Karen Kendrick
So Paul, in addition to that great input, thank you so much, Matt, you know, how do I think about the process of maybe working with someone like you to help me learn, develop my skills, get more job opportunities? What’s that look like?
Paul Towne
Sure. So working with a recruiter is definitely a unique experience versus working with internal HR. And so one I think common misperception is that most recruiters don’t sort of rep individual candidates. But the advantage of working with a recruiter is that I have relationships with multiple organizations who may have similar job openings. And so just because someone applies, and for whatever reason, there might be something completely unrelated to their experience, might be cultural fit, and might be something else. They’re not selected. I already know that they’re a rockstar. And so it’s very easy for me to plug them into something else. So you know, one thing that I would share, Matt talked about feedback, is that, you know, feedback is a gift. And if you ask a HR manager, hiring manager, or recruiter for feedback, take it gracefully. You know, you might not agree with it. But if I had a nickel for every time I had a candidate ask me for feedback and then they said, “I totally disagree with everything you say.” And that’s just not going to do anyone any favors, especially if I already had a favorable opinion of you, and I have other opportunities that I’d love to engage you with but you wouldn’t accept feedback. That’s not a that’s not a great look.
Paul Towne
And so my recommendation is, think of, and I know it can be hard, but think of an interview process as a personal and professional discovery and a journey. And try to take it as gaining information, like realigning with how you want to reinvent yourself going forward, reimagine your relationship to work. And if you can, you know, think of, “Yes, I spent a fair amount of time doing this, but I learned something about myself. I learned something about what I bring to the table, I learned something about what really works for me and what really doesn’t work for me. I learned something about an organization that I didn’t really know anything about. And either I want to pursue more organizations like this, or this is the last time that I’m going to talk to this kind of organization because I didn’t have a great experience.” So you know, while it can be disheartening, and I, like I said, I’ve been on both sides of the table. I’ve been a fundraiser for way longer than I’ve been in search as a recruiter, and it can be hard to keep a positive attitude. But if you can try to look at it as an opportunity to learn and to grow, then hopefully you can come out of it, even if it’s a no, with you know, “I have a better sense of who I am. I have a better sense of what I’m looking for. And I won’t have to knock on quite as many doors next time.”
Karen Kendrick
Wow. It becomes a part of the journey you’re on. It’s always a win no matter what happens. That’s really helpful. Well, thank you Paul and Matt for joining me today for this episode. I know your words of wisdom will be so helpful to our audience. If you want to connect with Paul, you can find him on LinkedIn and connect with him at the email in the show notes. We would also love to stay connected to you on your journey. You can join our Community Hub where we have a job board and a community of over 1000 alumni, clients, and community members that you can network with. So you can find the link to join in the show notes as well. So everyone, take care and we’ll see you next time.
Recorded
Thank you for joining us for the Nothing But Major Gifts podcast from Veritus Group. Richard and Jeff also write an ongoing blog that you can subscribe to for free at veritusgroup.com. Please join us again next time.