There are few topics as frequently talked about right now as issues with hiring and retaining fundraisers. This issue has persisted for years, but recently it has become increasingly problematic for non-profits.
With many organizations struggling to fill vacant positions, or dealing with increasingly high turnover, we decided to ask a top recruiting expert, and friend of ours, for some advice.
We sat down with Paul for a recent episode of our Nothing But Major Gifts podcast to hear his top tips for hiring your next fundraiser. Here’s what he had to say.
(And if you have any follow-up questions for Paul, feel free to send him a note!)
Jeff Schreifels: So Paul, can you just start us off by talking through what you’re seeing in hiring right now? And why are organizations having such difficulty finding those good candidates?
Paul Towne: Sure, happy to. So it’s definitely a complicated time for hiring. And I’d say there’s a lot of trends that we’re seeing, but there’s also a lot of variability in the market. So, you know, one thing that I’m definitely hearing a lot from non-profit hiring managers is that budgets can be tight, right? I think a lot of organizations are trying to figure out how to navigate and adjust to some uncertain economic conditions that are happening. And so salaries can be limited.
We also know that a lot of organizations are wanting to have their employees back in the office. And there seems to be a bit of a disconnect. I think most candidates that are out there are really looking for remote or hybrid work. And organizations are starting to say, “You know what? We’re missing out on the interpersonal dynamics, the collaboration that happens when a team is in the office.” And so sometimes there’s a disconnect between what organizations are wanting and what candidates are wanting.
The other thing that has really been interesting is that, before the pandemic, it seemed that most job opportunities were focused on local candidates. And with the huge increase in the number of remote opportunities, candidates are often competing against not just people in their own backyard, but people from across the country. And so that really changes the dynamics. It can make the search a lot more challenging, and have a lot more complexity. I think it’s most important that you take the time to sort of align your expectations before going into a search and be really clear in terms of, you know, what exactly are you looking for, obviously, in the background and experiences of those that you want to invite to join your organization. But also in terms of what kind of environment you’re going to set up for them to be successful.
Karen Kendrick: Wow, you said so many great things. Back up a minute, and I want to jump into the hybrid piece, because this is fascinating to me. And just talk a little bit more about what are the trends happening in the workplace?
What should I be thinking about if I’m a leader in the workplace? And then what should my realistic expectations be? If I’m looking for a position, and I’m really wanting to work from home or be hybrid?
Paul Towne: Sure. So I think one thing for candidates to consider is that if an organization offers in-person services, and they have a physical location, it’s probably likely that they’re going to require you to be in the office at least part of the time. So the reason for that is sort of multifold. You know, one reason is to have the experience to get a pulse of what’s happening with your organization to be able to tell compelling stories when you’re working with donors. And so having that opportunity to interact with individuals that your organization serves, or to be able to touch the impact of your organization in some way, is a really valuable experience. It’s really hard to have it if you’re not in the office,
Karen Kendrick: So you’re saying if I’m working in a non-profit with a mission that has a building, and a mission that’s happening in person, they’ll want me in the office some because I’ll need to interact and connect more than let’s say, for example, where I’m doing something that’s less location directed.
Paul Towne: Yeah, I think that’s pretty much true across the board. But there are organizations that either provide virtual services or national organizations where, you know, you might be working in a local office, but the work is happening sort of outside of the region within which you’re working. And so for those, I think there’s more opportunities to be, you know, to offer virtual opportunities or more hybrid opportunities.
So when I think about an organization like iMentor, a lot of the work that they do, it’s in their name, iMentor, so they’re doing mentoring remotely. And so those types of organizations often offer a more remote or hybrid opportunity versus other organizations, like, let’s say, a Boys and Girls Club. Obviously, they’re very site based. And so the work happens in a physical location. And so a lot of those organizations want their fundraising team to be able to interact with the people that they serve.
Karen Kendrick: So if I’m a leader, and I’m trying to figure this out, what are candidates wanting? I really do need people in the office at least part time. What is it that people are wanting to get from the remote that I may be able to provide in other ways?
Paul Towne: Sure. Yeah, I think it’s important to think creatively about that. And maybe not have a one-size-fits-all approach. Although, you obviously want to address issues related to equity. But I think flexibility is probably the most common thing that folks are looking for. And so that could mean, either the days a week that you’re in the office, or it could mean the work hours. I know some folks I’ve worked with in the past, who have small children, they’ll get online and work for a couple hours, then they’ll take some time off to be able to take their kids to school, then they’ll work during the day, and then they’ll work a couple hours after the kids go to bed.
I think even being able to offer that kind of flexibility is something that people really respond well to, particularly for women and people of color. A lot of times, folks will have additional family responsibilities. So it could be kids, it could be aging parents, it could be having family members that have special needs. And so being able to be responsive and just hear folks out, right? I think that’s really going to show empathy. And it’s going to show that you’re trying to meet employees, at least halfway.
And it might not always work out. But I think it’s important to have those conversations in advance. Because what you don’t want to have happen is to set an expectation for an employee. And then, once they get started, change the terms. That’s just going to lead to a lot of dissatisfaction across the whole organization, to be honest. So, just being really clear from go, I think, is really important in terms of setting a standard for a work arrangement.
Karen Kendrick: Yeah, don’t say, “Yeah, we can be flexible and figure it out,” when you don’t really mean it in an interview process.
Paul Towne: I think that’s right.
Jeff Schreifels: Paul, what is some of the research saying about the remote work that candidates need to know?
Paul Towne: You know, it’s really kind of mixed. I’ve seen some reports out there that say that productivity goes down when folks are working from home. And then I’ve also seen that, you know, when you don’t have a commute, and I work from home now, and my commute is about, you know, 20 feet from my living room to my office. And so there’s definitely advantages to that. But I think, you know, some folks do really well in a work-from-home environment, and some folks tend to be very distracted. And so, you know, there’s not a lot of consistency.
One thing that I have seen is that for organizations that track how often people are online, which I don’t recommend, because I think that’s a little big brother, but they have shown that the actual time that folks have logged in, is somewhat less than what they’re reporting. So maybe they’re actually thinking that they’re working more, but at the end of the day, they’re actually logged in less than they’re they’re sort of saying.
I think another thing is that fundraising numbers for some remote teams have been down. And so there’s a lot of factors that play into that, right? So, you know, we know that the economic market for fundraising is a bit uncertain right now, we have a lot of different economic factors that are happening. We don’t know, are we in a recession? Are we out of recession? And are we going into another one? So that’s definitely a dynamic. And then issues that are still sort of, you know, coming out of the pandemic kind of things. So there’s a lot of different dynamics. I think it’s hard to point to just one.
Interestingly, I was reading this morning, I don’t know if anyone else saw this, but Salesforce just announced that they are going to pay their employees to come back to the office, or they’re going to incentivize them by giving them a $10 charity donation for every day that they go into the office for the next two months, which to me feels a little bit manipulative. And I saw one op-ed piece on it, and they said, you know, if you don’t come into the office, then this hungry kid is not going to eat. So I would say that’s probably not the best way to go. But you’re definitely seeing, you know, a lot of organizations trying to do what they can to get folks into the office, for better or for worse, right.
I do think that having folks identify meaningful and interactive ways to collaborate is really important. I think you can sometimes feel a bit isolated when you’re not in the office on a regular basis. And so I do think that whether that’s doing quarterly in-person retreats, whether it’s having designated zoom meetings, I think there are ways to build that collaboration. But it takes intentionality. It doesn’t just happen.
And I think you have to kind of go the extra mile to make sure that it’s not just, you know, transactional conversations that you’re having. That you’re really kind of advancing the types of conversations you’re having and getting to really meaningful collaboration. But Zoom fatigue is also real, right? I think we all have sort of burnt out on whether it’s, you know, the Zoom happy hours that were happening a lot during the beginning of the pandemic. I don’t know if I could ever sit down for another Zoom happy hour.
Jeff Schreifels: We got rid of ours.
Paul Towne: Yeah, exactly. But I do think, again, getting back on to the intentionality piece, I think, you know, asking employees to keep their cameras on is really important. I know sometimes when you’re in six, back-to-back Zoom meetings, which we probably all have been there, I’ve certainly been there, it’s challenging, right? Because in the Zoom world, the interaction that you’re having is very unnatural.
Karen and I are way too close to each other right now than we would be if we were in a physical room, otherwise, that would be very uncomfortable. And so there is something to that Zoom fatigue. But I do think that by staying on camera, it allows you to more actively engage with each other. And I do think that, you know, just by being aware of that, and maybe just inviting folks during each meeting to participate in ways that they feel comfortable on camera can be one way to do that.
Paul Towne: But on the other hand, there’s obviously benefits, right? So people were commuting more than ever before as we came up to the pandemic. And so there’s environmental benefits of having less cars on the road. There’s benefits in terms of being able to spend more time with your family. So it’s finding something that really works for you and makes the most sense for your organization.
Jeff Schreifels: Yep. Good. Well, how do organizations actually attract the right candidates who will be a good fit for the culture and the community?
Paul Towne: Yeah, so the non-profit talent market is really competitive right now, especially for development folks. There’s folks who have just been burnt out, you know, through the pandemic, as the needs that their organizations are facing have really skyrocketed. And fundraisers have really struggled to keep up with the pace of those needs. In a lot of ways, it is still a candidate’s market, I think, in particular, in certain fields, like higher education, for example. You know, I’ve talked to universities where they have 50 to 80 positions vacant at any given time. These are obviously some of the largest universities out there. But so, you know, in those cases, it’s really a candidate’s market.
However, as I spoke to before, I think because the market has changed so much, and in particular where positions are remote, you’re attracting candidates from all over the country, potentially. So, the dynamics related to that make the search process a lot more complex.
You know, there’s certain organizations that are doing only Zoom interviews. I’ve actually been hired before, during the pandemic, without ever having met a single person on the team. And so that really does change the dynamic. And so again, just being really intentional about if we are going to do this process 100% virtually, what will we do when that person is able to meet with us in person to ensure that they can jump into the culture in a way that feels comfortable and that feels authentic? I think that’s really important.
One thing that I hear a lot, and this is probably going to come as no surprise to any of your listeners or viewers, is that it’s important to pay development professionals what they’re worth. You know, that might be a little bit contradictory to what I said in the beginning. I do recognize that budgets can be really tight for organizations. But one thing that you can do is get a little bit creative about what your compensation benefits might look like.
So for example, if you don’t have the budget to pay, you know, sort of top dollar for a candidate, you might want to think about some incentive or bonus options, right? So let’s say that your fundraising goal for FY24 is going to be a million dollars. Well, if you bring in this rockstar development person, and they do $1.5 million, is there a way to incentivize them to reach that goal. So you know, that can be somewhat controversial, let’s be real. You again, want to think about issues related to pay equity, as it comes to other folks in the organization that might not be on the development team. So you have to kind of navigate that. Tread carefully. But there are some creative ways that I think that you can kind of stand out from a pay standpoint.
Another thing that we always talk about, which we already talked about, is offering flexible work arrangements. So you know, again, it doesn’t work for everyone. But it is a way that it could allow folks to have a little bit more control over how they spend their day. And so that could be something that’s attractive to candidates.
Karen Kendrick: So what is, I’m just curious thinking about, if I’m a candidate, and I’m hearing you say it’s kind of my market, what are some things that I also need to be thinking about, as I approach this work? And if it is my market, how do I really utilize that effectively?
Paul Towne: Yeah, I think, you know, first of all, just being really clear about what you’re looking for, I think is the most important thing, I think, on both sides. Whether you’re a hiring manager that’s looking to bring in new candidates, or you’re a candidate looking to make a change, it’s taking the time to really understand what work means to you, and how you want to show up in terms of the, you know, actual time in the office versus out of the office in terms of, you know, the type of impact that you’re looking to make, the opportunity to connect with the mission of the organization.
How do you want to connect? Are you inspired to only connect remotely? Or is it something where you really do need that time to be able to touch and feel the impact of your organization and see the work in person? Everyone’s different. And so I think, you know, taking a step back to really assess where and how do I do my best work? Where and how do I feel fulfilled? Where and how do I feel like I’m, you know, contributing positively, because this is the type of work that for a lot of folks is more than just a job. It’s a calling. And so how do you want that to feel?
Karen Kendrick: I like to, you helped me think about, I may think I need to be totally at home. But I might be able to do a hybrid or go in and say, “I really need the flexibility because of, you know, the person I need to take care of at home,” or whatever it might be and be able to negotiate some of those opportunities.
Paul Towne: So one thing that I would add, though, Karen, and I’ve seen this as a misstep with candidates, is that what you don’t want to do, if you are really looking for a flexible work arrangement, is to come in, you know, sort of making very direct requests. So that’s a conversation that is better had a little bit later in the process, rather than right off the bat. Because I’ve certainly had candidates who kind of came out swinging. They’re like, I’ve worked remotely for the last two years, I will never come into the office, this is how it’s going to be. If not, this isn’t the right place for me.
So it may be common sense to not do that, but I would sort of caution folks out there that are considering new opportunities to you know, sort of lay some groundwork, get them really interested in you before you start making any kind of demands about what you want your work arrangements to be. You can kind of softly say like, “I would be interested in exploring flexible work opportunities. Could you talk to me about what that can look like?” That would be great versus, you know, “I’ve worked remotely for two years, and I have no interest in coming in the office.” That’s going to just turn them off right away.
Karen Kendrick: Don’t do that on your first date. So back to the organizations… if they’re struggling to find good candidates. And I’ve heard that, “I can’t find any good candidates.” What advice do you have? How do they find that pool?
Paul Towne: I think there’s a couple of different approaches that organizations take. So I think the traditional way that organizations used to go after candidates was what we call post and pray. And so you kind of posted on Indeed or on LinkedIn, and just hoped that the good candidates came in. That may have worked at one point. I would say, in this job market, it’s probably not going to be that successful unless you happen to be, you know, the organization that everyone wants to work for in your town. And we all have those, right.
But if you’re not that organization, then I think it’s really important, first and foremost, to ensure that you’ve created a really clear and compelling job description. For me, I feel like that’s almost the most important part, or one of the most important parts of the job search process.
And if you’re not sure how to do that, there’s a lot of resources that are out there, right. So check out what other organizations are doing in their postings. I like a really long job description or prospectus versus something really short. I think, the details matter, and so really getting into, you know, what is the work environment? What is the team like? You know, those kinds of things matter as much as what are your day-to-day tasks going to consist of?
Karen Kendrick: So, what is the culture that I’m going to be coming into? Draw me in and attract me.
Paul Towne: Exactly. And then another thing that’s really helpful is to have a very clear and well-defined search process. So, you know, yeah, there’s still organizations out there who want to put candidates through eight interviews before they make a decision. Yeah, I say good luck to you. For a variety of reasons. But you know, for one, candidates’ time is valuable. And beyond that, because it can be a candidate’s market, you know, there’s a really good chance that your top candidate is going to take another job. It’s just very, very likely in this market.
And so having a process that makes sense, and you get the buy-in that you need from the right stakeholders, but isn’t unnecessarily demanding on a candidate’s time is just as really important. So, you know, really taking the time upfront to define that; be really clear with your candidates in terms of what to expect.
Have a clear timeline to say, you know, “In June, we’re going to be doing round one interviews, then the first week in July, we’re going to switch to round two, and we expect to make the offer the last week of August.” That’s so helpful for candidates and they’ll just really appreciate that clarity.
Also, if there are assignments that you’re going to have them do, be respectful about the time that it takes to do that. I mean, I remember when I was a fundraiser, there were times when I had to create, you know, a 20-page PowerPoint to present on how I would go about, you know, soliciting funds from X company for Y non-profit. And that took me, you know, six or eight hours to put that together. And it’s just, it’s really unnecessary. At the end of the day, you could ask me questions, and I could talk through it without having to do a lot of prep work. So I think that can be really helpful.
And then some of these things are really just common sense. Like treat your candidates with respect and appreciation every single time you speak with them. I think one thing that I’ve seen that has worked really well is trying to be aware of the power dynamics that exist in interviews, you know. It used to be, and still to a large degree is that, you know, you as a candidate, you go into these interviews, expecting okay, when is the gotcha question going to happen? And so you’re kind of on edge, because you’re just expecting that gotcha question. Or you’re expecting them to ask you something that you could have no idea about, because you haven’t worked for that organization yet. And that doesn’t really do any good for anyone.
At the end of the day, you’re not wanting to hire the person that can interview the best, you want to hire the person that’s going to be the best fit for your organization. And if you’re putting someone on edge, are you really finding the best person? Or are you just finding the person that can manage their nerves, and can convince you that they’re not going to get rattled? Is that going to be the best candidate? I’m not sure. So I think that’s something to really think about. And I really encourage when I work with organizations to think through, like, what can you do to really make this a joyful process rather than a stressful process?
Jeff Schreifels: Yeah, yeah.
Karen Kendrick: What’s a gotcha question? Give me some examples.
Paul Towne: So I would say, you know, asking a question, for example, about finances. You know, “We’re having a deficit whenever it is related to this type of fundraising. How would you go about turning that deficit around?” Unless you’re really a long time in the process, and if this is an advanced process, then great, that might be an appropriate question, but this is the second interview. You haven’t really had a chance to get to know what the opportunities are with the organization, or if you haven’t seen a strategic plan. But if it’s later in the process, and you’ve seen a strategic plan, then sure, but why ask that question?
Again, it makes sense, as you’re going through and you’re thinking through the different rounds of interviews, having questions sort of start off at a very high level. And then as that person gets to know your organization, and it has had the chance to have conversations, and maybe you’ve shared some key documents with them, then you can ask questions that are a little bit more deep. But don’t start them out with that. It’s just gonna, it’s really going to be an unpleasant experience for everyone.
Jeff Schreifels: Like, “Where do you think we should be in five years?”
Paul Towne: Exactly. That’s a great gotcha question. I mean, it’s a terrible gotcha question, but it’s a great example of one.
Jeff Schreifels: Yeah. So how do we ensure that you have a diverse pool of candidates, though? Because there’s a lot of hiring managers that want to make sure that they bring in a diverse team. So how do you make sure that that happens?
Paul Towne: Yeah, I mean, we hear that question all the time. I think that’s probably the most popular question that I ever get. And I think the first thing that I would really challenge organizations and hiring managers to think through is, “Why is this important to you?” And have a real clear answer in terms of why that is.
Is it that you’re looking to have your staff represent the diversity of the people you serve? That’s a perfectly good reason. If it’s just that, you know, we’re getting pressure from our board to make sure, you know, again, all of these things are real conditions that people are dealing with. But just being really open and transparent about why you’re looking to diversify your team to bring in a candidate of color or candidates that brings some kind of diverse background.
But let’s say that you do decide that that’s what you want to do. I think one thing that can be really valuable is asking staff and board members for recommendations. I think a lot of times that stuff gets overlooked. So if you are, especially board members, right, board members are already invested in your work. And so they may know other folks that could be a good fit. So I think, you know, being explicit about asking for recommendations can be a really helpful step. Like I said, when I was talking about sort of the post and pray approach, don’t expect candidates from diverse backgrounds to come to you.
So, you know, take the time to find relevant job boards for those committees that you’re looking to engage. So, you know, there’s really a variety. I mean, I think it’s a little bit overwhelming now, the number of diverse job boards that are out there. But take the time, if you’re a local organization looking to hire a local person, and that’s going to be different than your national organization, or you’re looking to hire remote candidates. There is an organization called ABFE, the Association of Black Foundation Executives, they have a job board. So there’s, you know, really a wide variety of different resources that are out there. But I think that’s a really good place to start.
Another thing that’s really important is to make sure that the hiring process is equitable. So I’m a huge, huge advocate for salary transparency. I just think, you know, why do you want to waste candidates’ time? Why do you want to waste your interviewer’s time? If the salary isn’t going to be a fit, you know, it just makes sense, to share as much as possible. And whether it’s, you know, a specific range or a minimum, either of those things are helpful benchmarks for candidates to be able to determine, is this the right fit for me? Or should I just move on? And that’s really important.
And then the last thing that I would say is, you know, making sure that you’ve set up the organization that you’re working with, your colleagues, for success. So you know, engaging the right people in the process. If you are looking to bring in, you know, diverse perspectives, bring in, you know, folks that represent the diversity that you’re looking to seek. Bring in different perspectives in terms of teams that you might be working with. So, for example, I’m doing a search now for a director of foundation relations. And so having the program team participate. These are the folks that are going to be taken to every meeting. Why would they not be the ones that would be helping to make the decision of who’s going to best be the steward that’s going to help them bring in those foundation dollars?
Jeff Schreifels: Yeah, I love that.
Karen Kendrick: And I’ll just add, and then do your own work, right? Look at your culture, keep growing.
Paul Towne: Absolutely.
Karen Kendrick: I’ll press that at Veritus, we’ve been on that journey, our own learning and development, looking at our culture, because you don’t want to hire people and say you want to hear their voice and then they get there and it doesn’t happen.
Paul Towne: That’s so true. And it’s such a terrible situation, not just for the candidate, I mean, but also for the organization because, as we all know, development, fundraising is all about relationships. And so to bring in someone, introduce them to funders, and then they’re gone in, you know, six weeks or six months. It’s not an ideal scenario. So it’s much better to put in the time and put in the work upfront.
Jeff Schreifels: Yeah. Okay, let’s say we’ve now hired someone. We went through the whole process, we have good candidates. We’ve hired them. How do we keep these good people? That’s the big one. Because, you know, in our world, it’s like, every 15-18 months people are moving on. So how do we keep them?
Paul Towne: Well, what I always remind hiring managers is that basically, having someone accept an offer, and make it to their start date is day one in the process. And from there, everything is up to you. And so I think a lot of folks have this misconception that all you need to do is get them, find the right candidate, they’re going to have a great experience, it’s going to be great. So I think, you know, thinking about what the onboarding process is going to be like, even before you start the search. I’ve seen so many organizations where, you know, it’s the eleventh hour, and they still haven’t figured out how they’re going to onboard this new Executive Director. Well, that’s super critical.
And, to be honest, if I was a candidate for an executive director position, that would be the thing that I’d be most interested in. Because, especially if you don’t, a lot of these smaller organizations don’t have a human resources rep. So, who’s actually going to do the onboarding? Is the board going to do it? Do they have time? You know, you may have a full-time job to be able to spend the time to actually ensure that that person is going to be successful. Are there opportunities for mentoring? Are there opportunities for professional development? How are they going to learn?
Let’s say they’re switching the impact area. Let’s say it’s someone that worked for an environmental conservation organization, and now they’re working for a youth development organization. How are they going to learn the language? How are they going to learn what funders are looking at, because those things are very different. And so I think, you know, having a place in plan from day one, and being very clear that, you know, you can expect that in your first week, you’re probably going to be handling paperwork. And then the second week, we’re going to have you spend some time with the program scene. Maybe do some site visits. Like just having a plan, I would say for probably at least the first month, but potentially, the first 90 days, I think, is really critical, you know, to make sure that folks are going to be successful.
And then I think, allowing people to be able to experience the work. I’ve worked for organizations where, as a global development person, I’ve worked for organizations where they had a budget for me to go into the field. And so once a year, I’d have a chance to spend two weeks and I got to go to Rwanda and Ghana and India. And having those experiences, when I got to come back and speak with corporate partners about what I saw on the field was way worth the price of admission for them to send me to those locations. So, I think when there are opportunities to be able to find ways to engage folks, that they have those compelling stories that can be really valuable.
And then, you know, not everyone has the budget to do those kinds of things. So there are things that you can do that are low cost. So you know, allowing people to shadow another role or do a job switch for a day, I think there’s some really interesting things that you can do that don’t really cost much, if anything, but still allow people to feel like they’re learning, that they’re growing, that they’re getting a different perspective.
But you have to make that accessible. And you have to not just say, you know, we’re going to let you have this time, but actually make it mandatory. Otherwise, we all get busy. So carve out a certain day, maybe you know, the third Friday of the month is going to be your shadow day. And that’s going to be the day that you have an opportunity to spend with the program’s team, you know, at the school, at the zoo that you’re working with. Like something that really gives you that sort of shot in the arm to be like, “Oh, yeah, this is why I do this work. This is why I sit behind a desk all day.”
Karen Kendrick: That should be for all fundraisers, period.
Paul Towne: Exactly.
Jeff Schreifels: Well, thank you so much today, Paul, for joining us, giving us your wisdom. This has been a really incredible conversation. And I hope it’s given you, the listener, some more tools to attract and hire the best candidates for your fundraising positions. If you want to connect more with the work Paul is doing at Cooper Coleman, or are looking to hire a search firm for your open positions, you can find his contact information in the show notes.
And if you want to learn more about how Veritus Group can support you in creating a fundraising program with a system and structure that will help your fundraisers thrive and want to stay at your organization, we’d love to connect with you. You can reach us, reach right out to us at the link in the episode description or by emailing us at firstname.lastname@example.org. Thank you, and we’ll see you next time.
Recorded: Thank you for joining us for the Nothing But Major Gifts podcast from Veritus Group. Richard and Jeff also write an ongoing blog that you can subscribe to for free at veritusgroup.com. Please join us again next time.